Saved By A Church - Or A Relationship?

Today, looking at the Facebook Info page of a long time Friend, I noticed her Christian and Political views -- which led me to comment on them. My Friend wrote:

Religious Views: United Methodist - It's not about religion, it's about a relationship. I am a Bible believing Christian and do my best to walk out my faith every day.

I agree. It's not the church one attends which makes us a Christian. Some of my Religion Forum Friends who are in the more legalistic churches, or are non-believers, already have me condemned to hell for my sharing of the Gospel. I cannot agree with the legalistic "you can only be saved in our church" theology churches -- or the "you can only be saved if you follow all of our traditions, dogmas, and rituals" theology churches.

And, then, I also have a problem with many Liberal Theology churches which teach that the Bible is only a good Christian Life guidebook - and, not the Holy Spirit Inspired, Holy Spirit Inerrant, Literal (God says what He means, and means what He says) Written Word of God.

Now, please do not misunderstand what I am writing. I am not saying that these dear Friends in the legalistic churches and those in the Liberal Theology churches are not Christian believers. That is not determined by which Christian church one attends; but, what is in your heart. Jesus in your heart = Salvation in your soul. What I am saying is that these dear Friends are so busy trying to earn their salvation, their way into heaven - and trying to make sure they do not lose it, once they have it - that there is no time for them to relax and enjoy "peace with God" (Romans 5:1).

I will always believe that God's full revelation to man is found in the Bible - and that, when reading and studying the Bible - we should first read the verse or passage as the Literal Word of God. If a literal interpretation fits, that is your message. If a literal interpretations does not fit - THEN, look for a symbolic or metaphorical interpretation. He is not a God of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Like all authors who write a User's Manual, this one, the Bible, is written to be understood and without mistakes or errors. After all, the One who is author of the Bible is without mistakes ("Oops" is not in His vocabulary) - so His User's Manual, the Bible,is without mistakes or errors in its original manuscripts.

Yes, minor copy errors have occurred over the years of reproducing the books of the Bible to be distributed; but, none that have altered nor changed God's message and instructions for mankind found in His User's Manual. That is my Conservative Theology take on it.

One of my favorite Southern Gospel songs explains this "which church issue" so clearly.

It’s Not What's Over The Door

1. Some people think today, If heaven you would see,
You must belong to their church, Or be lost eternally.
But according to God's word, What He's still looking for,
Is what He finds within your heart,
And not what's over the door.

It's not what's over the door Of the church that you attend,
That makes you a child of God, And a heavenly citizen.
As the eyes of the Lord look this world o'er,
There's just one thing He's lookin’ for
Can’t you see that's what's in your heart,
And not what's over the door.

2. Does Jesus live in your heart, And have you been born again,
Has the blood of Calvary's Lamb, Washed away all your sins?
Are you fully trusting in, The crucified risen Lord,
Can't you see that it's what's in your heart,
And not what's over the door. 

It's not what's over the door of the church that you attend,
that makes you a child of God, and a heavenly citizen.
As the eyes of the lord look this world o'er,
There's just one thing he's lookin’ for
Can’t you see that's what's in your heart,
And not what's over the door.

And, my Friend has written on her Facebook Info page:

Political Views: Moderate -- I'm really tired of politics and politicians and the havoc they wreak. God is in control and that's who I trust, so I'm wondering "should I bother?"

While I realize that you, after working in a government position, might be tired of politics (I believe I would be also) -- I always have to ask myself, "What if the candidate, or the bill, which I support -- loses by one vote -- and I did not vote. How would I feel?"

And, that makes me stay in the voting fracas, even though, like you -- I am sick of politics, politicians, political advertisements every five minutes on television, finding my snail-mail mail-box full of political fliers and mail, getting 200 political e-mails every day, and seeing a political candidate on the Jay Leno or David Letterman shows every week.

In other words, I am sick of politics -- but, fearful of letting an incompetent fox like Obama stay in the American Hen House, also called the White House, for four more years. He has already done almost irreparable damage to America in four years -- what could he do in another four years?

So, when you or I feel "should I bother?" -- I say that WE MUST BOTHER.

Please, let's not subject ourselves to another four years of Obama and his Socialist Team.

And, these, my dear Friend, in my subtle way -- are my thoughts.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

What Is Jesus Christ's Message To Us In Luke 18:18-30?

Often, when sharing with others, in person or in writing, we often are asked questions and do not really know the motive behind those questions. Is this person a believer and truly seeking to better understand God's Word? Or, is this person a non-believer and only trying to lure us into a "Gotcha!" situation?

Regardless, the best way to respond is with the best Biblical answer we have, in Christian love, and with the intent of pointing this person toward Jesus Christ -- or helping a fellow believer become closer to Jesus Christ. I pray that I was effective in doing this in my response to my Times Daily Religion Forum Friend, Blue.

If you find this useful, please feel free to share it with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Let's keep sharing the Word of God in love, keep sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- until He returns.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray

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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion begun by Blue titled "So Much Controversy, I Am Right, Your Wrong, Your Right, I Am Wrong" -- Blue and I have sort of a running dialogue. In an earlier post, Blue wrote, "Guess we won't know until we are gone, for me I believe in CHRIST, what have I got to lose, I will take my chances on HIM."

And, I replied, "Hi Blue, From your statement, it sounds more like you have bought a lottery ticket. Question: Do you have a saving, personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

To this, you respond, "Bill, you know I don't play the lottery and the casinos don't pay 98% more like 5% on them machines."

Blue, I am not sure I really understand your response. We both know that I was not talking about literally playing the Lottery -- but, that you seem to be approaching Jesus Christ and salvation as though you are just placing a "win, place, or show" race track bet on Him -- just in case. That is not the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9, which tells us, "By grace you are saved through faith" -- faith in Jesus Christ -- not, "Let's place a bet and see what happens."

Next, you say, "Then again one who stands on a ball field does not make them a ball player, no more than one who attends a church makes them a Christian."

So true. One is not saved by attending church; nor is one saved because of the church he attends. We are saved ONLY by having a personal, saving relationship with Jesus Christ. And, that is why I asked you, "Do you have a saving, personal relationship with Jesus Christ?"

Then, you tell me, "I have read the Bible through and through from the beginning to the end seven times, read the Koran once, have not tried reading the Zoroastrian Bible yet."

Reading the Bible through a thousand times will not make a person a Christian believer; it will just give him strained eyes. And, yes, you may have read the Qur'an and other holy books from various world religions; but, that is not the point.

It all goes back to the question I asked you in my earlier post, "Do you have Him in your heart, spiritually -- not in your head, intellectually?"

The scholars who make up the Jesus Seminar intellectually know the Bible; most of them are professors, Bible scholars, and theologians. However, from the "fruit" or, more appropriately, "lack of fruit," we can see in their work -- personally, I would not want to be any of them when it is time to stand before Jesus Christ in judgment.

These so called scholars have publicly denied about 95% of what the Bible, the Written Word of God, tells us that Jesus said and did during His earthly ministry. Yes, these guys have intellectual knowledge of Biblical writings -- but, they have no spiritual knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Blue, do not be like those intellectual know-nothings. It is better to read and spiritually know God's Word once -- than to read it a thousand times and only know it only intellectually. That is why I asked you, "Do you have Him in your heart, spiritually -- not in your head, intellectually?"

Finally, you suggest, "Bill, go read St. Luke Chapter 18 verses 22-30."

The passage you are suggesting in Luke 18:22-30 is the story of the Rich Young Ruler:

Luke 18:18-21, Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'!" And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."

Luke 18:22-25, So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich. And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Luke 18:26-27, And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?" But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

Luke 18:28-30, Then Peter said, "See, we have left all and followed You." So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life."

Blue, I am not quite sure I understand what you are asking in your reference to this passage in Luke 18; but, I will make the assumption that you are implying that just because I write about Biblical issues and beliefs on the Religion Forum -- this does not make me a Christian believer or a Christ Follower. That is very true. I could write volumes about Biblical issues and beliefs -- and still not be a Christian believer.

But, praise God, that is not true. I am a Christ Follower, I am a Christian believer -- because, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8) -- I have believed and received (John 1:12) His "free gift" (Ephesians 2:8) of eternal life. And, I have His personal promise on this in John 6:47, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (also in John 3:16, 36, and John 5:24).

But, Blue, we do have proof of your premise in the Jesus Seminar and in stacks of scholarly books written by Bible professors, scholars, and theologians who only know Jesus Christ intellectually.

And, these writings can be harmful to new believers and to those just beginning to seek God. When I was a new believer, I read a book written by a Bible professor from the University of San Diego. Basically, his writings worked to tear down faith in much of the Old Testament writings. He wrote in his book why he believed Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible; he wrote why he believed that the book of Isaiah was written by multiple writers instead of by the single writer.

And, on and on, he systematically ripped apart the Word of God -- and, because he was a "Bible scholar" -- at that stage of my early Christian infancy -- I almost believed what he had written. At that stage of my Christian life -- that could have led me down an entirely different path; not to condemnation; but, to having no "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).

This is why I caution Friends -- when you buy and read a Christian book, even a Bible, make sure you know who wrote it, how and why it was written, and to the best of your knowledge, where those writers stand on conservative Christian theology. Let me give you a good example. About fifteen years ago, Dory and I had an older friend we were trying to get to come to church with us. Mary kept dragging her feet; so, I decided to buy her a good study Bible as a gift.

I went to a reliable Christian book store and began to browse the study Bibles. I found one which really looked good. But, then, I looked at the list of contributing writers who had written the study notes. It read like a Who's Who of the "Name It And Claim It" Prosperity Theology preaching crowd. Needless to say, I put that Bible away and found a more appropriate study Bible with a list of contributing study note writers whom I knew to be dependable and who, to the best of my knowledge, believe and teach a solid Christian theology.

But, Blue, to get back to the Scripture passage you recommend, Luke 18:22-30 (better yet, Luke 18:18:30). In this passage Jesus is approached by a rich young ruler (meaning that, in their culture, he was well versed in Old Testament Scripture) who asked what he had to do to gain salvation.

Jesus first referred him to the last six of the Ten Commandments, our relationship with others -- and the ruler declared that he had done this since childhood. Doubtful, since no one can truly live the Ten Commandment without failing -- but, that is not the point Jesus was leading toward.

Next, in Luke 18:22-25, Jesus leads the young ruler to the first four of the Ten Commandments, our relationship with God. Here Jesus tells him to sell and give away all his riches -- and become a Christ Follower. The young ruler could not do this -- for his worldly wealth was his god; just as many of our atheist and secular Friends makes science their god.

And, finally, when asked how a person could do this, Jesus tells them that, "With God all things are possible" (verse 27).

Basically, Jesus is not telling anyone that he must leave his family, leave his job, give away all of his material things to be a Christian believer. What He truly is telling us is that we must place Him first in our lives. What does this mean? Well, how many times have you wanted to watch the Super Bowl or another popular event -- but, it was on during your church worship service? Did you go to church?

How often have folks taken a better paying job, even though it meant having to work on Sundays -- just to gain more material things? It is one thing if your normal job requires you to work on Sunday and there is no way to reschedule. However, to voluntarily take a job that called for Sunday work -- just to make more money -- is not putting Jesus Christ first.

When a friend asks you to go to the beach on Sundays, or go to the Nascar races on Sunday, or to go fishing on Sunday -- where do YOU go on Sunday? This is the teaching that Jesus Christ was giving to the young ruler and to us; not that we have to leave our wife, children, family -- and run away to preach the Gospel.

Wherever we are, whatever we are doing, whoever we are with -- we can always put Jesus Christ first in our lives. And, if we do, we have His promise of greater rewards and eternal life "in the age to come" (Luke 18:30).

Blue, I pray that I have answered your question. If not, let's continue our dialogue.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Is Baptism A Commandment - Is Baptism A Requirement For Salvation?

Often in discussions with our more legalistic brothers and sisters, and even with many non-believers, the question of baptism and the implied salvation through baptism is raised. How do we respond? We respond like we do with all theologies which are not 100% Bible based. Many people, many churches, build their theology upon one or more Scripture verses or passages -- even though there are other Scripture verses which contradict that teaching. Should we ignore parts of Scripture which contradicts our chosen theology -- or should we rework our theology to make it agree with ALL Scripture? Of course, you and I know that no theology, no Bible interpretation, is valid if even one Scripture verse contradicts that teaching.

This is why I have tried to show all sides of the "salvation through baptism" question. And, I have not arrived at any new understanding; but, have confirmed the belief that I have long had and confirmed the theology taught in our church.

I pray this dialogue is edifying for you and that you will choose to share it with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Let's keep sharing the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, with all the world -- until He returns.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray

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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled, "What Happens When A Believer Dies?" I wrote, "Until that last breath, a person can repent, ask Jesus Christ into his/her heart, and receive salvation through Jesus Christ. However, once a person has breathed his/her last breath in this mortal body -- his/her eternal fate is set in concrete."

And, my Forum Friend, TheMax, wrote, "Whatever happened to make you forget the words of Peter when he was asked "men and brethren what shall we do?" He didn't say let Christ come into your heart. He replied "Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (salvation).

I responded, "Hi Max, Jesus Himself tells us, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47). I will take His promise as valid."

To be more complete, I should have added, "You will notice that Peter tells the people in Jerusalem to 'Repent' -- which means turn from following the world and turn to follow Jesus Christ. When a person 'repents and believes' he is saved, he is a Christian believer. Then, Peter continues, '. . .be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

Some may see this as Peter saying that repenting and baptism are the requirements for salvation, for receiving the Holy Spirit -- and I can see how one could interpret this Scripture verse in that way. However, when we stands this verse beside other Scripture passages, which we must do to have a complete theology, such as John 6:47, John 3:16, etc., which tell us that "he" and "whoever" believes HAS eternal life -- we must conclude that Peter meant that repenting and believing is the criterion for salvation, for receiving the Holy Spirit. And, then, one, in an act of obedience, follows Jesus Christ in baptism as a declaration to the world that this person HAS become a Christian believer.

Renowned Bible scholar and commentator, Matthew Henry, writes in his commentary on Acts 2:

"(1). . .Repent, repent; change your mind, change your way; admit an after-thought.'' (2.) Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ; that is, "firmly believe the doctrine of Christ, and submit to his grace and government; and make an open solemn profession of this, and come under an engagement to abide by it, by submitting to the ordinance of baptism;. . ."

And, in the Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on Acts 2, David Brown writes:

"Acts 2:38. Repent -- The word denotes change of mind, and here includes the reception of the Gospel as the proper issue of that revolution of mind which they were then undergoing. (Be) baptized . . . for the remission of sins -- as the visible seal of that remission."

Max, you tells me, "If you believe, then keep his commandments. All of them, not just the ones that seem right to you."

And, I respond, "Hi Max, We do not live under the Law, for the Law could not save anyone (Romans 2:20). We have passed from the Law and, since the Day of Pentecost, have lived in the Dispensation of Grace. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast' (Ephesians 2:8-9)."

You reply, "Bill, I didn't say anything about keeping the old Law. When Christ died on the cross, the veil of the temple was split, meaning we no longer have to go through a high priest to speak with the Lord."

I respond, "Then, it is not clear what you did mean -- if not the Law? There is no Old Law and New Law. There was the Law given to Moses in the Old Testament for the people of Israel. And, there is the Dispensation of Grace brought to us through Jesus Christ. And, that is what I was addressing. If you had something else in mind; please tell me."

You answer, "I said commandments. Is not baptism a commandment? Or are you going to pick and choose the ones that suit you?

Okay, now I see the misunderstanding. You are relating baptism to the Ten Commandments. No, baptism is not a commandment; it is an ordinance. Jesus Christ left us two ordinances, i.e., instructions, that we should do in remembrance of Him until He returns: baptism and communion.

After we have believed, been sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30), and have become saved, born again Christians by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- we are then instructed to follow Him in baptism showing to the world that we are His disciples and that we are Christ Followers.

And, we are instructed to remember Him spiritually through communion, in Luke 22:19-20, "And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood."

The full Ten Commandments are spelled out by God in Exodus 20:

Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods before Me."
Exodus 20:4, "You shall not make for yourself an idol. . ."
Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. . ."
Exodus 20:8, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."
Exodus 20:12, "Honor your father and your mother. . ."
Exodus 20:13, "You shall not murder."
Exodus 20:14, "You shall not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15, "You shall not steal."
Exodus 20:16, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
Exodus 20:17, "You shall not covet. . ."

Then, in Matthew 22, Jesus Christ addressed the Pharisees and condensed the Ten Commandments into two:

The first four of the Ten Commandments, our responsibility toward God, are found in Mat 22:37-38, ". . .You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment."

And, the last six of the Ten Commandments, our responsibility toward our fellow man, are found in Matthew 22:39, "And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Then, Jesus summarized in Matthew 22:40, "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

These commandments all Christians are to honor and to follow; yet, we are not and cannot be saved through the Ten Commandments (Romans 3:20), nor through the ordinances of baptism and communion.

So, how are we saved? Good question. We are told in Romans 4:3-5, "For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.' Now to him who works the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly his faith is accounted for righteousness."

Hebrews, chapter 11, also tells us of Abraham and many other Old Testament saints who were counted as righteous, i.e., attributed the righteousness of Jesus Christ -- through believing God.

You see, if we rely upon our own righteousness, our own works -- we are doomed to hell; for our righteousness is like filthy rags in the eyes of God (Isaiah 64:6). Yet, when we have the righteousness of Jesus Christ attributed, i.e., imputed, to us -- God does not see us, but, instead sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ. We are told in Isaiah 1:18-19 that, although our sins are as scarlet -- once we repent and believe, we are "as white as snow, like pure white wool."

The Old Testament saints had this righteousness because they believed God and believed in their promised Messiah.

And, under the Dispensation of Grace, i.e., the New Testament, given us by Jesus Christ -- we read in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

So, Max, you see that all people, Old Testament saints and New Testament saints, have salvation ONLY through Jesus Christ, the Messiah. He is the only WAY to God the Father (John 14:6) -- for all mankind. In Him we have eternal life, and His promise of eternal life in the presence of God. Without Him, there is only the promise of eternal destruction, eternal condemnation in the presence of Satan.

This is why I urge ALL of our Forum Friends to choose wisely; for the "free will" choice we make in this mortal life, before that last breath -- WILL determine our eternal destination: heaven or hell. There are no other choices.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Are New Age, Wicca, And Christianity Compatible?

So often, over the years, I have heard people say, "I'm a Christian, but, I see nothing wrong with psychics, astrology, and superstitions." That is basically what my Forum Friend was saying when she told us she is a New Age/Christian/Wiccan. Sorry, no way. New Age and Wiccan are the antithesis, the total opposite, of Christianity. One cannot be short and tall, one cannot be fat and skinny -- and one cannot be New Age or Wiccan and be a Christian believer. Yet, on the Religion Forum I am chastised for pointing this out to my misguided Friend.

Yet, we all know that when we share the Gospel, there will be many who will disagree, many who will attempt to discredit us and the Gospel. Jesus told us, in Luke 6:22, "Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man." And, in 1 Peter 4:14, we are told that this brings us blessings. So, praise God -- I am blessed!

Please feel free to share this with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Let's all keep sharing the Word of God, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- until He returns.

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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In another discussion begun by O No titled "Why We Are Here" my Forum Friend, B50, wrote, "It was a humbling moment. So I guess God can work through a New Age/Christian/Wiccan."

And, I responded to her with, "Not that I want to burst your bubble -- but, there is NO WAY a person can be New Age and Wiccan -- and be a Christian believer. The two are totally polar opposites. If you think you can wear both coats -- you are only fooling yourself."

Then, O No tells me, "I truly do believe that Bill, wittingly or unwittingly, IS working for the other side. The way he slams people who he KNOWS are believers, the way he insults people and tries to denigrate them. We all KNOW that is not Christian behavior! Bill pushes people AWAY from Christ by his actions and his venomous words."

O No, my Friend, when B50 tells us that she follows the New Age religion, this is what is meant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Age

The New Age (also referred to as the New Age movement, New Age spirituality, and Cosmic Humanism) is a decentralized Western social and spiritual movement . . . It includes aspects of Occultism, astrology, esotericism, metaphysics, alternative medicine, music, collectivism, sustainability, and nature.

The New Age movement includes elements of older spiritual and religious traditions ranging from atheism and monotheism through classical pantheism, . . . New Age practices and philosophies sometimes draw inspiration from major world religions: Buddhism, Chinese folk religion, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism; with particularly strong influences from East Asian religions, Gnosticism, Neopaganism, New Thought, Spiritualism, Theosophy, Universalism, and Western esotericism.

When B50 tells us that she follows the Wiccan religion, this is what is meant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Wicca is a Neopagan religion and a form of modern witchcraft. It is often referred to as Witchcraft or the Craft by its adherents, who are known as Wiccans or Witches. Its disputed origins lie in England in the early 20th century, though it was first popularized during the 1950s by Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant, who at the time called it the "witch cult" and "witchcraft", and its adherents "the Wica." >From the 1960s the name of the religion was normalized to "Wicca."

Wicca is typically a duotheistic religion, worshipping a Goddess and a God, who are traditionally viewed as the Triple Goddess and Horned God. These two deities are often viewed as being facets of a greater pantheistic Godhead, and as manifesting themselves as various polytheistic deities. Nonetheless, there are also other theological positions within the Craft, ranging from monotheism to atheism.

So, anyone telling us that he/she can follow a New Age religion, can follow the Wiccan religion -- and still be a Christian believer -- has NO idea what it means to be a Christian believer. As I have said many times before, New Age/Wiccan and Christianity are polar opposites.

One cannot be both. That would be analogous to saying, "I am going to spend eternity in heaven and in hell." No. Not possible. Sorry, my Friend -- that is totally impossible. One has to make a choice between the two -- just as one HAS to make a choice between world religions and Christianity.

O No, if you consider what I write to be "venomous words" -- I must suggest that you confuse the Gospel with "venomous words." And, as the apostle Paul tells us in Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. . ." The key words here are "everyone who believes" -- and one cannot believe in and follow Jesus Christ while following antiChristian world religions.

My Friend, you accuse me of serving the wrong side. Do you think that, maybe, by trying to hold hands with all sides; you may be doing just what you accuse me of doing?

Joshua 24:15, "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

If you still disagree with me, you might want to do more research on the New Age, Wiccan, and other world religions -- and their relationships with Christianity. And, just possibly, you might want to take an introspective look inside to see if it is Bill Gray with whom you disagree -- or God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Are Folks Born Gay? - And Do Morals Save Us?

On an open Forum dealing with Christian faith; there are several responses which can always be counted on to come from both the non-believers and our Liberal Christian brethren. First, people are born gay and therefore can live a homosexual lifestyle and still be Christian. Second, and this is a result of the Liberal Social Theology -- a person must be doing "good deeds" to be saved.

In this dialogue, I offer a newcomer, Art, on the TimesDaily Religion Forum reasons why both of these misconceptions are not true. Please feel free to share this with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Let's keep sharing the Word of God, and refuting false teachings, until He returns.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray

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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion "What's The Difference Between Fat And Gay Pastors?" I wrote, "Okay, start throwing the rocks. But, keep in mind that I am not telling you Bill Gray's word; I am telling you what the Word of God tells us. Take it or leave it; but, in leaving it -- a person is also leaving the God who authored it."

And, our new Forum Friend, ArtVandelay, responded, "I will leave it. You believe in a sky fairy who knows all, yet you refuse to accept reality here on earth. For example, there are people who are born gay. Also, there are non-religious people have have exceptional morals, but you refuse to accept reality. Christians claim to be caring and loving, yet they try and repress entire classes of people, and spew hate in the name of the sky fairy. Yes, I opt for no sky fairy."

Art, my Friend, be careful with your wording -- some folks may start to believe you are one of our old banned Forum Friends trying to sneak back in -- say Fish or Deep. In leaving God, I am not sure if you are declaring yourself to be an atheist, an agnostic, or just a vanilla flavored non-believer who does not want to become a Christian believer because you feel that you will have to give up your desired lifestyle. Which is it?

Yes, for a Christian believer, there has to be accountability to God -- and to your fellow Christ Followers. But, far from that being a burden, it is a blessing -- for along with that accountability goes the promise of Jesus Christ that we have eternal life, eternal security, in Him. That is what you are missing when you opt out of the Christian faith.

You tell me, "For example, there are people who are born gay."

Please give us a URL source showing that a "gay gene" has been found by science.

No, I am not talking about quoting an atheist psychiatrist, or a group of atheist psychiatrists, who declares the gay lifestyle to be normal; but, an actual scientist who declares and has proven that he/she HAS indeed found a "gay gene" and therefore proves beyond all doubt that folks are born gay.

Until then, I will stick to what God tells us in Genesis 1:24-31, the sixth day of Creation, when man is created in His image -- and He declares, "It is very good." On all the other five days of Creation, He only declares His work to be be "good." But, on the sixth day, when He creates man, He declares this work to be "very good."

Now, let's skip on over to Leviticus 18:22 where He declares the homosexual lifestyle to be "an abomination" and to Leviticus 20:13, where He declares the homosexual lifestyle to be "a detestable act."

Then, run on over to Romans 1:26 where He declares this lifestyle to be "unnatural" and in verse 27 where He calls it an "indecent act."

You get my drift. Why would God declare His creation of man to be "very good" -- and then, create some of them to be an abomination, detestable, unnatural, and indecent? Does this make sense? Who are we to believe -- God or the atheist psychiatrists? I will go with God.

Then you tell me, "Also, there are non-religious people (who) have have exceptional morals. . ."

Amen to that! There are many wonderful, exceptionally moral people who are not Christian believers. I have never questioned that. However, when we speak of being a moral person, we are not necessarily speaking of eternal salvation. A person can be very moral -- and still not have eternal salvation. So, the task of every Christian believer is to tell folks that they need Jesus Christ, they need to be born again (John 3:3), they need to, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- believe and receive (John 1:12) His "free gift" of eternal salvation.

How do they do this? Glad you asked. In Revelation 3:20, Jesus tells us, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if ANYONE hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."

In this Scripture verse, Jesus Christ is telling all of us that He is standing at the door of our hearts, patiently waiting to be invited to come in and be our personal Lord and Savior. Believe it or not, there are things which Jesus Christ, God, cannot do. He cannot lie, He cannot make a mistake, He cannot change -- and, He cannot open the door of your heart and make you a Christian believer.

YOU have to do this yourself. This is the function of the gift of "free will" which God gave to everyone in His creation. Each of us has the "free will" to choose to follow Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- or to deny Him. It is your choice -- but, YOU MUST make that choice for yourself. No one else can make it for you.

So, if YOU will open the door of your heart and invite Him in -- He will come in and dine with you. In the Jewish culture of Jesus' day; to dine with a person was the highest intimacy. One did not dine with just anyone; but, only with those who were very special. So, when YOU open the door and invite Him to come in -- He becomes the most special Person in your life -- your personal Lord and Savior.

Art, that should be our main goal in life; far above just living a moral life. However, if one is a born again Christian believer -- he/she will live a moral life. We call that the "fruit" of our salvation; that we strive to do the things which are pleasing to Jesus Christ. And, He did tell us, in Luke 10:27, to, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

That is all part of being a moral, born again Christian believer. For, we are told in James 2:17, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." We become a Christian believer by opening the door of our hearts to Jesus Christ -- and then, the "fruit" of that salvation is good works, moral works.

If we do not have the good works, as we are told in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, our works will be revealed and tested by fire -- yet, the Christian believer, even if he has no real works (for we are told in Ephesians 2:8-9 that man is not saved by works, lest he boast) -- that believer is still saved, and has eternal life with God. No, my Friend, works, no matter how good -- cannot save a person.

Here it comes! Like rain surely will fall from a rain cloud! Go ahead and say it, "Okay, Bill, how about all those priest who molested young children? Are they moral?"

No, they are not! And, who says they are Christian believers? Just because a person is a priest; just because a person is a pastor; just because a person is a bishop or an elder -- does NOT make them Christian believers.

In the 1970s, Peter Jenkins and his wife, Barbara, walked across America and wrote the book, "The Road Unseen," about this journey. In the book, Jenkins, then not a Christian believer, came upon a Revival Meeting in Mobile, Alabama. The speaker was James Robison, a pastor from Texas. In this excerpt from the book, Jenkins relates this experience with Robison:

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James wiped his forehead and paced across the platform, "I remember an evangelist who walked up to a man in the congregation one night. The evangelist put his hand on the man's shoulder and asked him if he wanted to become a Christian. The man practically growled at the evangelist, 'I'm a deacon in this church!' And the evangelist calmly said, 'Don't let that stand in your way.'"

As most of the people laughed, he continued, "It's possible to be a deacon, an elder, a steward, a Sunday school teacher, and go to church all your life and not know the Lord."

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A moral Christian believer may, and most often will, slip and fall into sin on occasion. However, if a person does this evil consistently -- it becomes their lifestyle. And, a Christian believer CANNOT live an immoral, indecent, abominable lifestyle. For that is living a lifestyle which God Himself has denounced.

So, Art, my Friend, I pray that you will reconsider your choice of opting out of Christianity. When Jesus Christ was resurrected, this assured that all humans will also be resurrected and live eternal lives -- some to eternal life with God, others to eternal self condemnation with Satan. The choice is yours.

And, my Friend, I pray that you will choose well. The brief life we have on this earth; the brief worldly pleasures and desires we can attain in this life -- are but a mere pittance when compared to our eternal life. Eternity is a very long time. Plan well for it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill