It is always good for Christian believers, and even non-believers who are seeking to know more, to have discussions on Biblical issues. That is how we all learn and grow more knowledgeable about what the Word of God, the Bible, teaches. That is the reason I love discussion style Bible studies.
And that is why I will participate in social media and internet group discussions. I will not participate in a group discussion on social media which has deteriorated into a "spitting contest" - but I will jump into it occasionally when I feel that I can offer a post which can be productive.
In a group discussion named "Rapture Discussion: Pretribulation, Posttribulation, or Prewrath?" one member began a discussion on the Rapture, in the Bible or not? And after many posts back and forth - a member, James, posted the comment below:
While I believe he is on the right track, I would like to take a moment and clarify what I believe he is suggesting. Let's break his comment down and take a look:
He tells us, "The soul and spirit go to be with the Lord at death."
Yes, when a believer dies in this mortal body, the physical body goes into the grave - and the soul and spirit go to be with God. While I will not be dogmatic about it, I believe God created us in His image(Genesis 1:26) as triune beings: body, soul, spirit.
The body, i.e., flesh, is obviously our physical body, our physical connection with this mortal earth.
The soul is that inner part of us, the immaterial, which many would call our personality. It is that immaterial part of us which, although we are all of the same flesh, causes us to respond differently to internal and external stimuli. Some of us cry easily when we become emotional, while others just shrug it off. I love trees, but I have a friend who hates trees and said that if she bought a house with a tree in the yard, she would cut down the tree. In such matters we are expressing our individual thoughts, our individual personalities, our individual souls.
The spirit is our connection with God. You might envision it as our high speed direct connection with God, our Spiritual DSL. That connection is available 24/7/365, no waiting, no dropped calls when we pray. But, most importantly it is the indwelling Holy Spirit within each believer. That moment we believe and receive Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior (John 1:12), the Holy Spirit takes up residence within us and will never leave us (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30). The Holy Spirit will teach us, guide us, and convict us - because we are now children of God. Our spirit which was dead because of the Adamic Sin Nature - is now and forevermore, alive again!
When Adam sinned through disobedience, sin and death entered into God's creation (Genesis 3:3, Romans 5:12). The Sin curse, because all descendents of Adam inherit his sin curse, an innate sin nature, an innate desire to sin. Death was a two part curse: spiritual death was immediate, breaking man's personal connection with God - and physical death became a process of physical deterioration leading the body to finally stop functioning, to die physically.
"Graves are opened for one reason - for a body to get out."
At the Rapture will the graves be opened - or is that a symbolism, a metaphor?
We are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."
We read in John 11:43-44, "Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come forth!' And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, 'Loose him, and let him go.'"
And, we are told in Matthew 27:52-53, "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
Once again, I will not be dogmatic, but I see these Scripture passages assuring us that, since God created us, He can raise us up again into eternal life. Lazarus, the friend of Jesus Christ, physically rose from the dead after four days and lived, physically, again. When Christ died on the cross, graves were opened (it is my belief that these were only believers, saints, which were raised) and those who had died physically once again lived.
Those people in John 11 and Matthew 27 were not resurrected into immortal bodies as will be those in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - but were raised again in mortal bodies - and later they again died in their raised mortal bodies.
This now raises a key question: Are only those who died and were physically buried with their mortal bodies intact - to be raised again at the Rapture? Or will all believers who died in Christ be raised in their immortal bodies?
What about people who are cremated? What about people who were eaten by animals, or sharks? These latter people were not only killed, but their bodies were processed through animal or shark digestive systems - and passed as fecal matter. Then that fecal waste was used by nature as fertilizer to help plants and sea life grow.
Has that consumed human body which passed through animal digestive systems, became fertilizer, and eventually ended up being nourishment for plants and sea life - now lost forever? Can God raise that body immortal? You betcha! Not one single molecule of your body - whether buried, cremated, or eaten - is lost to God.
So, do graves have to be opened to allow God to resurrect our bodies into immortality? No, our omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God knows even the hairs on our heads and the molecules of our bodies - and He will raise all believers immortal at the Rapture.
"And we which are alive shall be caught up, quickened, changed in the twinkling of an eye."
Isn't that a wonderful promise - that when Christ comes for His bride, His church, in the twinkling of an eye we will all be with Him? How fast is your twinkling? Our brethren who died in Christ will be raised first - and in the twinkling of an eye, we will follow.
Personally, I hope He comes while I am still alive - for I would love to have that experience. Just imagine - one moment you are going about your daily tasks, hopefully glorifying God - and the next moment, in the twinkling of an eye, you have left all earthly things behind and have flown up to meet our Lord who is waiting to greet each one of us personally.
All earthly things will be left behind ~ expensive or ragged clothing - fancy cars, junkers, or just worn out shoes - dentures, wigs, silicon implants, etc. - all will be left behind. For at that moment we will be like Him, immortal (1 John 3:2). We will not be deity - but we will be in our immortal bodies which will be like His glorified, immortal body when He resurrected and ascended into heaven.
"Other saints will come after us, and be gathered before Jesus comes. Some that die between the last reaping and Armageddon - the gleanings, will be raised at his return."
Now here I am not really clear on what my Facebook group friend, James, is telling us. So, let me share what I believe the Bible tells us about the saints.
The Old Testament saints were those who put their faith in their coming Messiah, even though He would not come for hundreds or thousands of years after they lived. We read about many of them in Hebrews 11, often referred to as the Faith Hall Of Fame. We view the death of John the Baptist as the last of the OT saints.
The OT saints did not go to heaven upon death - for no one can enter heaven except through Jesus Christ (John 14:6). Upon death those OT saints went into Hades/Paradise (Luke 16:19-31), also called the Bosom of Abraham. They stayed there in joy and peace, knowing that one day their Messiah was going to come and lead them into heaven.
When Christ died He went into Hades. I believe He went into Hades/Paradise for He told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).
Upon death, Jesus Christ went into Hades/Paradise to celebrate with the OT saints - and then (Hebrews 4:8) He effectively closed Hades/Paradise and led all those saints into heaven. Today, when we believers die, we go into Heaven/Paradise to join those OT saints.
Since the Day of Pentecost 33 AD, all believers are said to be the church, i.e., the body of Christ, or body of believers worldwide.
The New Testament saints, i.e., the church, which is also called the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, are all who have become believers from the Day of Pentecost 33 AD until the Rapture occurs. Those saints will be in heaven during the seven year Tribulation, will stand before Christ at the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat), will receive our own righteousness (Revelation 19:8), will become His eternal Bride (Revelation 19:6-9), and will return with Him at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:14).
The Tribulation saints: During the seven year Tribulation, a great multitude will become believers in Christ and many of them will be martyred for their faith. Those who are martyred are the Tribulations saints (Revelation 7:9-14).
At His Second Coming after the Tribulation - "His armies which are in heaven" will accompany Him to earth to establish His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. Who makes up this heavenly army? It will be the Old Testament saints, the bride of Christ (His church), the martyred Tribulation saints, and His legends of angels. When He returns He will establish His Millennial Kingdom from the throne of David in the holy city Jerusalem. And all we saints who return with Him will reside in His Millennial Kingdom in our immortal bodies.
Also, at His Second Coming, all the survivors of the horrible seven year Tribulation will stand before Him at the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46). The Goats, all surviving non-believers, will go into eternal punishment, the lake of fire. (verse 46) - and all Sheep, all surviving Tribulation believers, will go into His Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies (Matthew 25:34). They will still have their innate sin nature inherited from Adam, but since Satan has been locked in the abyss for 1000 years and his Antichrist and False Prophet are already in the lake of fire - there will be no one to cause temptation.
For 1000 years those in their mortal bodies will be marrying and having children:
Unfortunately, because of apathy and lack of temptation during the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, many born during that time will not bother to come to faith in Christ. Satan is released after 1000 years for one purpose - to be the final test of those born during the Millennium.
If they continue in their apathy, continue to ignore the Holy Spirit's ministry toward salvation - they will easily be recruited into Satan's army. And their will be billions of apathetic non-believers by the end of the Millennium. Satan and his army of non-believers will come against Jesus Christ and the holy city Jerusalem one last time - and God will destroy them - sending them into the lake of fire to be with Satan, his Antichrist and False Prophet, and all past non-believers, eternally (Revelation 20:7-10).
Then the non-believers in Hades/Torment (Luke 16:19-31) will be resurrected into their eternal bodies to stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment. After their judgment hearing, they will be throne into the eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
Finally, the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem - our new home where we will live eternally in the Sonshine.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
And that is why I will participate in social media and internet group discussions. I will not participate in a group discussion on social media which has deteriorated into a "spitting contest" - but I will jump into it occasionally when I feel that I can offer a post which can be productive.
In a group discussion named "Rapture Discussion: Pretribulation, Posttribulation, or Prewrath?" one member began a discussion on the Rapture, in the Bible or not? And after many posts back and forth - a member, James, posted the comment below:
The soul and spirit go to be with the Lord at death. Graves are opened for one reason - for a body to get out. And we which are alive shall be caught up, quickened, changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Other saints will come after us, and be gathered before Jesus comes. Some that die between the last reaping and Armageddon - the gleanings, will be raised at his return.
While I believe he is on the right track, I would like to take a moment and clarify what I believe he is suggesting. Let's break his comment down and take a look:
He tells us, "The soul and spirit go to be with the Lord at death."
Yes, when a believer dies in this mortal body, the physical body goes into the grave - and the soul and spirit go to be with God. While I will not be dogmatic about it, I believe God created us in His image(Genesis 1:26) as triune beings: body, soul, spirit.
The body, i.e., flesh, is obviously our physical body, our physical connection with this mortal earth.
The soul is that inner part of us, the immaterial, which many would call our personality. It is that immaterial part of us which, although we are all of the same flesh, causes us to respond differently to internal and external stimuli. Some of us cry easily when we become emotional, while others just shrug it off. I love trees, but I have a friend who hates trees and said that if she bought a house with a tree in the yard, she would cut down the tree. In such matters we are expressing our individual thoughts, our individual personalities, our individual souls.
The spirit is our connection with God. You might envision it as our high speed direct connection with God, our Spiritual DSL. That connection is available 24/7/365, no waiting, no dropped calls when we pray. But, most importantly it is the indwelling Holy Spirit within each believer. That moment we believe and receive Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior (John 1:12), the Holy Spirit takes up residence within us and will never leave us (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30). The Holy Spirit will teach us, guide us, and convict us - because we are now children of God. Our spirit which was dead because of the Adamic Sin Nature - is now and forevermore, alive again!
When Adam sinned through disobedience, sin and death entered into God's creation (Genesis 3:3, Romans 5:12). The Sin curse, because all descendents of Adam inherit his sin curse, an innate sin nature, an innate desire to sin. Death was a two part curse: spiritual death was immediate, breaking man's personal connection with God - and physical death became a process of physical deterioration leading the body to finally stop functioning, to die physically.
"Graves are opened for one reason - for a body to get out."
At the Rapture will the graves be opened - or is that a symbolism, a metaphor?
We are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."
We read in John 11:43-44, "Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come forth!' And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, 'Loose him, and let him go.'"
And, we are told in Matthew 27:52-53, "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
Once again, I will not be dogmatic, but I see these Scripture passages assuring us that, since God created us, He can raise us up again into eternal life. Lazarus, the friend of Jesus Christ, physically rose from the dead after four days and lived, physically, again. When Christ died on the cross, graves were opened (it is my belief that these were only believers, saints, which were raised) and those who had died physically once again lived.
Those people in John 11 and Matthew 27 were not resurrected into immortal bodies as will be those in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - but were raised again in mortal bodies - and later they again died in their raised mortal bodies.
This now raises a key question: Are only those who died and were physically buried with their mortal bodies intact - to be raised again at the Rapture? Or will all believers who died in Christ be raised in their immortal bodies?
What about people who are cremated? What about people who were eaten by animals, or sharks? These latter people were not only killed, but their bodies were processed through animal or shark digestive systems - and passed as fecal matter. Then that fecal waste was used by nature as fertilizer to help plants and sea life grow.
Has that consumed human body which passed through animal digestive systems, became fertilizer, and eventually ended up being nourishment for plants and sea life - now lost forever? Can God raise that body immortal? You betcha! Not one single molecule of your body - whether buried, cremated, or eaten - is lost to God.
So, do graves have to be opened to allow God to resurrect our bodies into immortality? No, our omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God knows even the hairs on our heads and the molecules of our bodies - and He will raise all believers immortal at the Rapture.
"And we which are alive shall be caught up, quickened, changed in the twinkling of an eye."
Isn't that a wonderful promise - that when Christ comes for His bride, His church, in the twinkling of an eye we will all be with Him? How fast is your twinkling? Our brethren who died in Christ will be raised first - and in the twinkling of an eye, we will follow.
Personally, I hope He comes while I am still alive - for I would love to have that experience. Just imagine - one moment you are going about your daily tasks, hopefully glorifying God - and the next moment, in the twinkling of an eye, you have left all earthly things behind and have flown up to meet our Lord who is waiting to greet each one of us personally.
All earthly things will be left behind ~ expensive or ragged clothing - fancy cars, junkers, or just worn out shoes - dentures, wigs, silicon implants, etc. - all will be left behind. For at that moment we will be like Him, immortal (1 John 3:2). We will not be deity - but we will be in our immortal bodies which will be like His glorified, immortal body when He resurrected and ascended into heaven.
"Other saints will come after us, and be gathered before Jesus comes. Some that die between the last reaping and Armageddon - the gleanings, will be raised at his return."
Now here I am not really clear on what my Facebook group friend, James, is telling us. So, let me share what I believe the Bible tells us about the saints.
The Old Testament saints were those who put their faith in their coming Messiah, even though He would not come for hundreds or thousands of years after they lived. We read about many of them in Hebrews 11, often referred to as the Faith Hall Of Fame. We view the death of John the Baptist as the last of the OT saints.
The OT saints did not go to heaven upon death - for no one can enter heaven except through Jesus Christ (John 14:6). Upon death those OT saints went into Hades/Paradise (Luke 16:19-31), also called the Bosom of Abraham. They stayed there in joy and peace, knowing that one day their Messiah was going to come and lead them into heaven.
When Christ died He went into Hades. I believe He went into Hades/Paradise for He told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).
Upon death, Jesus Christ went into Hades/Paradise to celebrate with the OT saints - and then (Hebrews 4:8) He effectively closed Hades/Paradise and led all those saints into heaven. Today, when we believers die, we go into Heaven/Paradise to join those OT saints.
Since the Day of Pentecost 33 AD, all believers are said to be the church, i.e., the body of Christ, or body of believers worldwide.
1 Corinthians 12:12-14, 27, "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many. . . . Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually."
The New Testament saints, i.e., the church, which is also called the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, are all who have become believers from the Day of Pentecost 33 AD until the Rapture occurs. Those saints will be in heaven during the seven year Tribulation, will stand before Christ at the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat), will receive our own righteousness (Revelation 19:8), will become His eternal Bride (Revelation 19:6-9), and will return with Him at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:14).
The Tribulation saints: During the seven year Tribulation, a great multitude will become believers in Christ and many of them will be martyred for their faith. Those who are martyred are the Tribulations saints (Revelation 7:9-14).
At His Second Coming after the Tribulation - "His armies which are in heaven" will accompany Him to earth to establish His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. Who makes up this heavenly army? It will be the Old Testament saints, the bride of Christ (His church), the martyred Tribulation saints, and His legends of angels. When He returns He will establish His Millennial Kingdom from the throne of David in the holy city Jerusalem. And all we saints who return with Him will reside in His Millennial Kingdom in our immortal bodies.
Also, at His Second Coming, all the survivors of the horrible seven year Tribulation will stand before Him at the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46). The Goats, all surviving non-believers, will go into eternal punishment, the lake of fire. (verse 46) - and all Sheep, all surviving Tribulation believers, will go into His Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies (Matthew 25:34). They will still have their innate sin nature inherited from Adam, but since Satan has been locked in the abyss for 1000 years and his Antichrist and False Prophet are already in the lake of fire - there will be no one to cause temptation.
For 1000 years those in their mortal bodies will be marrying and having children:
The believers who live through the Tribulation will be mortal. They will live and repopulate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom. Without the devastation of sin taking its toll, we can imagine the population increase during the Millennium will be enormous, almost incomprehensible. All those who are born during the Millennium will enjoy the benefits and blessings of Christ's reign on the earth. But they will still be born with a sin nature - and they will still have to freely repent and believe the Gospel, personally choosing Christ as Savior and Lord. (https://www.gotquestions.org/release-Satan.html)
Unfortunately, because of apathy and lack of temptation during the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, many born during that time will not bother to come to faith in Christ. Satan is released after 1000 years for one purpose - to be the final test of those born during the Millennium.
If they continue in their apathy, continue to ignore the Holy Spirit's ministry toward salvation - they will easily be recruited into Satan's army. And their will be billions of apathetic non-believers by the end of the Millennium. Satan and his army of non-believers will come against Jesus Christ and the holy city Jerusalem one last time - and God will destroy them - sending them into the lake of fire to be with Satan, his Antichrist and False Prophet, and all past non-believers, eternally (Revelation 20:7-10).
Then the non-believers in Hades/Torment (Luke 16:19-31) will be resurrected into their eternal bodies to stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment. After their judgment hearing, they will be throne into the eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
Finally, the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem - our new home where we will live eternally in the Sonshine.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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