In the Facebook group page named "Rapture Discussion: Pretribulation, Posttribulation, or Prewrath?" - a Friend, Lori McCool, asked me several very good questions. I will attempt to answer those questions from both the Bible and from personal experience.
Lori's questions are:
Let's look at the questions individually:
(1) "Does the Holy Spirit seal us at salvation - or when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit - and receive the Bible evidence of that baptism by speaking in tongues?"
a. "Does the Holy Spirit seal us at salvation?" ~ Yes, Ephesians 1:13 is clear that we are saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit the very moment we believe, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
b. "or when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit?" ~ Being sealed by the Holy Spirit, i.e., indwelled by the Holy Spirit, is what some refer to as "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." While we are, or should be, FILLED with the Holy Spirit daily, via being in the Word daily and being in prayer daily - a person can only be indwelled or sealed by the Holy Spirit once.
When the Holy Spirit has sealed or indwelled us, we have Him living within us. And in Ephesians 4:30 we are told that He will be in us, i.e., we are sealed - until the Day of our Redemption. That is the day our Redeemer Kinsman, Jesus Christ, (Leviticus 25:25, Ruth 4) comes to claim us for His kingdom. In other words, the believer's Day of Redemption is the day he dies in this mortal body or is raptured from this mortal body - and taken into the presence, i.e., redeemed, of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
When we are indwelled, sealed, with the Holy Spirit - He takes up residence within us - and NO ONE can evict Him (John 10:27-29).
c. "and receive the Bible evidence of that baptism by speaking in tongues?" ~ The most common passage used to suggest that "speaking in tongues" is valid is found in Acts 2:4-8,
Were the apostles speaking in unknown tongues or utterances? No. They were Galileans who were given the gift of speaking in the tongues, i.e., languages, of foreign travelers so that all might hear the Gospel and be saved. Just as missionaries are trained to speak in the language of the people in foreign nations where they will travel to be His witnesses to all nations and peoples - on that Day of Pentecost 33 AD, God gave the apostles an instant language lesson to enable them to share with all the foreign visitors. And, more than 3000 came to saving faith that day - because of the ability for the Gospel to be heard and believed in their own native languages.
"So, Bill, if speaking in tongues is not proof of salvation - what is the proof?" Glad you asked. We are told in 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."
When I was in the world, I really LIVED in the world. If there was a carnal sin - I did it! For fifty years, I lived that life of carnal pleasures and worldly fun. But, in 1987 when I placed my faith in Jesus Christ, when I turned from the carnal pleasures and worldly fun to follow Him - I became a new person in Christ. From that time the fleshly pleasures, the partying and drinking all night, sharing crude and vulgar jokes and stories no longer gave pleasure - for I was a new creation in Christ.
Did I immediately stop all those things? I will have to admit that I did not immediately lose all those desires - but I was given the strength to overcome them. I recall vividly a day when I walked into a friend's office and saw something on his desk which immediately made me think of a crude joke. My initial reaction was to tell him that joke - and I almost spoke. But, something stopped me. Do you know Who stopped me? It was the Holy Spirit who is living within me. When I started to tell the joke, He convicted me - and stopped me.
Is speaking in unknown tongues valid and Biblical? Let's look at what the apostle Paul tells us:
"So, Bill, you do not believe in speaking in tongues?" About fifteen years ago when I was an elder in the Fil-Am Church of Corona (now CICF), after our service, three senior members asked our pastor for special prayers. Since there were three of them and three elders, our pastor asked us to each pray with one of them. I prayed with a very devout and lovely eighty year old Polish lady, Maggie.
After we all had prayed, pastor and I were talking and he asked, "Did you notice that while you were praying, Maggie was praying in tongues?"
I told him, "Yes, I noticed that she was speaking very softly and I assumed she was praying in tongues."
But it did not bother me, for as I told him, "If praying in tongues by herself makes her feel more spiritual and closer to God - then, by all means, I am all for it. Any legitimate, Biblical means of being closer to God is good with me."
And, that is often the reason I am given when I ask why someone why they would pray in tongues - that it makes them feel closer to God. We never want to discourage any Biblical means of being closer to Him.
In 1 Corinthians 14 the apostle Paul addresses the issue of speaking in tongues. And we see that Paul does not condemn speaking in tongues - but he does say that if the whole congregation is speaking in tongues and a visitor comes in - he will think the whole group has gone crazy. Paul suggests that if folks are to speak in tongues, let it be only two or three in the group - and make sure there is someone in the congregation who can, concurrently, interpret what they are saying. Otherwise, it is just the clanging of noisy gongs.
One last thought on speaking in tongues - God created all languages and there is no language on earth which He does not speak fluently. So, when folks are speaking in tongues which are not a valid language of some people group - is that not just rattling, making unintelligible noises? We speak to God for specific reasons: to praise Him, to thank Him, to glorify Him - and then to bring our needs and supplications to Him, for ourselves but mostly for others. Since my language is English - isn't it better to speak to Him in English - and then He and I both will know what I am praying?
So, is speaking in tongues evidence of our salvation? First let's separate evidence and cause. Speaking in tongues is not the cause of our salvation (by grace through faith, alone - Ephesians 2:8-9) - but speaking in tongues can be a sign of a person's salvation if that person sincerely is edified and blessed spiritually by the action of speaking in tongues. That said, a person should NEVER be told that if he/she does not speak in tongues - he is not saved. That is not Biblical.
(2) Is it possible for someone to say that they've accepted Jesus - but have not believed that God raised Him from the dead, i.e., they have confessed Him as Lord, but not believed (in His resurrection)?
I see your question as being, "Can a person be a Christian believer - yet believe that God is a liar?" Why do I rephrase the question that way? Because God, in His Written Word, the Bible, tells us clearly and absolutely that Jesus Christ died for our sins, resurrected to offer us resurrection into eternal life, and ascended into heaven where He is our only Mediator with God the Father.
The apostle Paul tells us:
So, to answer the question, "Can a person be a believer - and not believe that Christ resurrected?" NO!
(3) Or vice versa, is it possible for a person to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead - and still not confess that Jesus is Lord?
My brother and I were born and raised in northwest Alabama, an area known as the Shoals. The Shoals consists primarily of four small towns: Tuscumbia, Sheffield, Muscle Shoals, Florence - but also includes many of the surrounding towns. The way I describe Alabama is - it is the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt!
The primary churches there when I was young were the Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Nazarene, and many various Churches of Christ. In my time, the 1940/50s, the Roman Catholic church was there - but the area was still a Protestant haven.
My brother, Bob, and I were talking a few years ago and both agreed that, looking back on our lives, we could not remember a time in our young lives when we did not know that God was real and that Jesus Christ was the Savior. In other words, I had intellectual knowledge of God - but I would not become a believer until I was fifty years old.
Why the disparity? Well, when I was twelve years old, I had an experience which drove me away from God for most of my life. In trying to explain it to my wife, I likened it to a woman who has been raped. She may have been raped as a young girl - and she may have gone on with her life, making a good life. But, that abused young girl who was raped is still inside her - and sometimes emotionally slips out.
Like the young girl who was raped, I likened my experience of being forced (yes, forced) by a traveling Revival Preacher, at age twelve, to go forward in a Pentecostal Revival Meeting and let them have "prayer and hallelujah" over me - as "spiritual rape!" For that reason, from the age of twelve until I was fifty - even though I knew God intellectually - I ran from Him.
And, even today when I have been a believer for thirty years - there are still times when I will have to get up and walk out of the sanctuary for a while if the service gets too robust. I could never survive in a TD Jakes style church.
So, yes Lori, it is very possible for people to know God intellectually, but not surrender their lives to Jesus Christ. Our God-given task as believers is to help that non-believer be comfortable talking about God and eternal life. We do that by first becoming his/her friend first - by having a normal conversation with the person - not a TD Jakes "I'm going to yell louder than you" kind of conversation.
I spent my entire adult working life in the computer industry - as a Field Engineer and in Sales and Marketing. The most important lesson I learned early was that, given that the products are similar - a prospective client will always buy from a friend first. With that in mind, when I wanted to sell to a particular prospect - my first effort was to become his friend. When we would go to lunch, or dinner, I would not talk business. I would talk with him, have a conversation, get to know him - and let him get to know me as a friend - not as a salesman who wanted his money.
Often when I took a new prospect to lunch, he would feel obligated to talk business. When he starts talking business, I would change the subject, "How is your son's team doing this year?" and such. However, if he persisted in talking business, then I would accommodate him. Most often when I took him back to his office, we were friends. On another day we would discuss how my computer would best fit into his business plan.
One of my biggest thrills as a computer salesman happened about 1970. The research arm of a New York based company, located in the San Fernando Valley, was developing a new Automotive Test System and I loaned the chief engineer a computer to evaluate for inclusion within his system. He went on vacation for a week - and when he returned he was told that the corporate office in New York had decided to close their research group. When I went to pick up my computer, he told me, "Bill, you have not made a sale. But, you HAVE made a friend." I can't remember any commission check I ever received which made me feel as good as his sincere statement that day.
Now, just imagine how you will feel one day, when walking the golden streets of glory, and a person comes to you and says, "Thank you for sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with me. If you had not approached me that day - I might not be here today." Can you think of anything better?
To my Facebook Friend, Lori - thank you for your very insightful questions. Having dialogues such as this help all of us grow in our knowledge of God's Word.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Lori's questions are:
(1) Does the Holy Spirit seal us at salvation - or when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit - and receive the Bible evidence of that baptism by speaking in tongues?
(2) Is it possible for someone to say that they've accepted Jesus - but have not believed that God raised Him from the dead, i.e., they have confessed Him as Lord, but not believed (in His resurrection).
(3) Or vice versa, is it possible for a person to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead - and still not confess that Jesus is Lord?
Let's look at the questions individually:
(1) "Does the Holy Spirit seal us at salvation - or when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit - and receive the Bible evidence of that baptism by speaking in tongues?"
a. "Does the Holy Spirit seal us at salvation?" ~ Yes, Ephesians 1:13 is clear that we are saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit the very moment we believe, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
b. "or when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit?" ~ Being sealed by the Holy Spirit, i.e., indwelled by the Holy Spirit, is what some refer to as "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." While we are, or should be, FILLED with the Holy Spirit daily, via being in the Word daily and being in prayer daily - a person can only be indwelled or sealed by the Holy Spirit once.
When the Holy Spirit has sealed or indwelled us, we have Him living within us. And in Ephesians 4:30 we are told that He will be in us, i.e., we are sealed - until the Day of our Redemption. That is the day our Redeemer Kinsman, Jesus Christ, (Leviticus 25:25, Ruth 4) comes to claim us for His kingdom. In other words, the believer's Day of Redemption is the day he dies in this mortal body or is raptured from this mortal body - and taken into the presence, i.e., redeemed, of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
When we are indwelled, sealed, with the Holy Spirit - He takes up residence within us - and NO ONE can evict Him (John 10:27-29).
c. "and receive the Bible evidence of that baptism by speaking in tongues?" ~ The most common passage used to suggest that "speaking in tongues" is valid is found in Acts 2:4-8,
"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. They were amazed and astonished, saying, ' Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?'"
Were the apostles speaking in unknown tongues or utterances? No. They were Galileans who were given the gift of speaking in the tongues, i.e., languages, of foreign travelers so that all might hear the Gospel and be saved. Just as missionaries are trained to speak in the language of the people in foreign nations where they will travel to be His witnesses to all nations and peoples - on that Day of Pentecost 33 AD, God gave the apostles an instant language lesson to enable them to share with all the foreign visitors. And, more than 3000 came to saving faith that day - because of the ability for the Gospel to be heard and believed in their own native languages.
"So, Bill, if speaking in tongues is not proof of salvation - what is the proof?" Glad you asked. We are told in 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."
When I was in the world, I really LIVED in the world. If there was a carnal sin - I did it! For fifty years, I lived that life of carnal pleasures and worldly fun. But, in 1987 when I placed my faith in Jesus Christ, when I turned from the carnal pleasures and worldly fun to follow Him - I became a new person in Christ. From that time the fleshly pleasures, the partying and drinking all night, sharing crude and vulgar jokes and stories no longer gave pleasure - for I was a new creation in Christ.
Did I immediately stop all those things? I will have to admit that I did not immediately lose all those desires - but I was given the strength to overcome them. I recall vividly a day when I walked into a friend's office and saw something on his desk which immediately made me think of a crude joke. My initial reaction was to tell him that joke - and I almost spoke. But, something stopped me. Do you know Who stopped me? It was the Holy Spirit who is living within me. When I started to tell the joke, He convicted me - and stopped me.
Is speaking in unknown tongues valid and Biblical? Let's look at what the apostle Paul tells us:
1 Corinthians 14:9-11, "So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
1 Corinthians 14:12-14, "Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:15-16, "What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?"
"So, Bill, you do not believe in speaking in tongues?" About fifteen years ago when I was an elder in the Fil-Am Church of Corona (now CICF), after our service, three senior members asked our pastor for special prayers. Since there were three of them and three elders, our pastor asked us to each pray with one of them. I prayed with a very devout and lovely eighty year old Polish lady, Maggie.
After we all had prayed, pastor and I were talking and he asked, "Did you notice that while you were praying, Maggie was praying in tongues?"
I told him, "Yes, I noticed that she was speaking very softly and I assumed she was praying in tongues."
But it did not bother me, for as I told him, "If praying in tongues by herself makes her feel more spiritual and closer to God - then, by all means, I am all for it. Any legitimate, Biblical means of being closer to God is good with me."
And, that is often the reason I am given when I ask why someone why they would pray in tongues - that it makes them feel closer to God. We never want to discourage any Biblical means of being closer to Him.
In 1 Corinthians 14 the apostle Paul addresses the issue of speaking in tongues. And we see that Paul does not condemn speaking in tongues - but he does say that if the whole congregation is speaking in tongues and a visitor comes in - he will think the whole group has gone crazy. Paul suggests that if folks are to speak in tongues, let it be only two or three in the group - and make sure there is someone in the congregation who can, concurrently, interpret what they are saying. Otherwise, it is just the clanging of noisy gongs.
One last thought on speaking in tongues - God created all languages and there is no language on earth which He does not speak fluently. So, when folks are speaking in tongues which are not a valid language of some people group - is that not just rattling, making unintelligible noises? We speak to God for specific reasons: to praise Him, to thank Him, to glorify Him - and then to bring our needs and supplications to Him, for ourselves but mostly for others. Since my language is English - isn't it better to speak to Him in English - and then He and I both will know what I am praying?
So, is speaking in tongues evidence of our salvation? First let's separate evidence and cause. Speaking in tongues is not the cause of our salvation (by grace through faith, alone - Ephesians 2:8-9) - but speaking in tongues can be a sign of a person's salvation if that person sincerely is edified and blessed spiritually by the action of speaking in tongues. That said, a person should NEVER be told that if he/she does not speak in tongues - he is not saved. That is not Biblical.
(2) Is it possible for someone to say that they've accepted Jesus - but have not believed that God raised Him from the dead, i.e., they have confessed Him as Lord, but not believed (in His resurrection)?
I see your question as being, "Can a person be a Christian believer - yet believe that God is a liar?" Why do I rephrase the question that way? Because God, in His Written Word, the Bible, tells us clearly and absolutely that Jesus Christ died for our sins, resurrected to offer us resurrection into eternal life, and ascended into heaven where He is our only Mediator with God the Father.
The apostle Paul tells us:
1 Corinthians 15:12-14, "Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty."
1 Corinthians 15:15-17, "Yes, and we are found (to be) false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up - if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!"
So, to answer the question, "Can a person be a believer - and not believe that Christ resurrected?" NO!
(3) Or vice versa, is it possible for a person to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead - and still not confess that Jesus is Lord?
My brother and I were born and raised in northwest Alabama, an area known as the Shoals. The Shoals consists primarily of four small towns: Tuscumbia, Sheffield, Muscle Shoals, Florence - but also includes many of the surrounding towns. The way I describe Alabama is - it is the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt!
The primary churches there when I was young were the Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Nazarene, and many various Churches of Christ. In my time, the 1940/50s, the Roman Catholic church was there - but the area was still a Protestant haven.
My brother, Bob, and I were talking a few years ago and both agreed that, looking back on our lives, we could not remember a time in our young lives when we did not know that God was real and that Jesus Christ was the Savior. In other words, I had intellectual knowledge of God - but I would not become a believer until I was fifty years old.
Why the disparity? Well, when I was twelve years old, I had an experience which drove me away from God for most of my life. In trying to explain it to my wife, I likened it to a woman who has been raped. She may have been raped as a young girl - and she may have gone on with her life, making a good life. But, that abused young girl who was raped is still inside her - and sometimes emotionally slips out.
Like the young girl who was raped, I likened my experience of being forced (yes, forced) by a traveling Revival Preacher, at age twelve, to go forward in a Pentecostal Revival Meeting and let them have "prayer and hallelujah" over me - as "spiritual rape!" For that reason, from the age of twelve until I was fifty - even though I knew God intellectually - I ran from Him.
And, even today when I have been a believer for thirty years - there are still times when I will have to get up and walk out of the sanctuary for a while if the service gets too robust. I could never survive in a TD Jakes style church.
So, yes Lori, it is very possible for people to know God intellectually, but not surrender their lives to Jesus Christ. Our God-given task as believers is to help that non-believer be comfortable talking about God and eternal life. We do that by first becoming his/her friend first - by having a normal conversation with the person - not a TD Jakes "I'm going to yell louder than you" kind of conversation.
I spent my entire adult working life in the computer industry - as a Field Engineer and in Sales and Marketing. The most important lesson I learned early was that, given that the products are similar - a prospective client will always buy from a friend first. With that in mind, when I wanted to sell to a particular prospect - my first effort was to become his friend. When we would go to lunch, or dinner, I would not talk business. I would talk with him, have a conversation, get to know him - and let him get to know me as a friend - not as a salesman who wanted his money.
Often when I took a new prospect to lunch, he would feel obligated to talk business. When he starts talking business, I would change the subject, "How is your son's team doing this year?" and such. However, if he persisted in talking business, then I would accommodate him. Most often when I took him back to his office, we were friends. On another day we would discuss how my computer would best fit into his business plan.
One of my biggest thrills as a computer salesman happened about 1970. The research arm of a New York based company, located in the San Fernando Valley, was developing a new Automotive Test System and I loaned the chief engineer a computer to evaluate for inclusion within his system. He went on vacation for a week - and when he returned he was told that the corporate office in New York had decided to close their research group. When I went to pick up my computer, he told me, "Bill, you have not made a sale. But, you HAVE made a friend." I can't remember any commission check I ever received which made me feel as good as his sincere statement that day.
Now, just imagine how you will feel one day, when walking the golden streets of glory, and a person comes to you and says, "Thank you for sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with me. If you had not approached me that day - I might not be here today." Can you think of anything better?
To my Facebook Friend, Lori - thank you for your very insightful questions. Having dialogues such as this help all of us grow in our knowledge of God's Word.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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