A Fun Dialogue With Ray!

Next to a good Bible study discussion, nothing is more fun than a good online dialogue with Friends who share a common interest, but may not necessarily be in full agreement on theology.  Tuesday evening when I came home from our Bible study, I had a Message from a new Friend, Ray.  And he had interesting questions and comments. 

I responded to his Message post and now I have given him a pseudonym instead of using his name - so that I might share our discussion with all my Friends. 

This dialogue is what ensued late Tuesday evening:

Ray:  Bill, could it be that Jesus is not coming back?  Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled.  Maybe there is no life after death.  I don't think anybody knows (for sure) that when we die that our souls go to heaven.  Just to let you know I have read the Bible from the beginning to end seven times - and have no idea how many times I have read the new Testament.

Bill Gray:  Hi Ray, Sorry to be delayed in responding.  I was at our Tuesday Evening Bible Study tonight and just got home.  But, back to your question and comments:  we either believe the Bible is the literal Written Word of God - or we must view it as just a book of allegories, symbolisms, just a good guideline for leading a good life - but not the literal Written Word, the sole authority for attaining salvation, eternal security, and daily walking in His Word.

Without the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word, we have no security in Christ.  For if we view the Bible as just allegories, symbolisms, and myths - anyone can make the Bible say anything, support any theology - no matter how unBiblical.

That is the major difference between Conservative Christian theology and Liberal Christian theology.  We conservative theology believer view the entire Bible, all 66 books, as the Holy Spirit Inspired, Holy Spirit Inerrant, Holy Spirit Literal Written of God.  And the liberal theology folks just see it as a good book full of symbolisms, allegories, and suggestions on how to be a Christian.

But, let's look at your points individually:

1. Bill, could it be that Jesus is not coming back? 

What does the Bible say?

Titus 2:11-13, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

John 14:1-3, "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Acts 1:10-11, "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.' "

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Revelation 19:11-16, "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. .  .  . And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: King of kings and Lord of lords."

Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Jesus Christ came first as the Sacrificial Lamb of God to make propitiation, i.e., to make atonement for our sins, to reconcile us to God (Hebrews 2:17).

He will come again as the Roaring Lion of Judah:  Revelation 5:5, "But one of the elders said to me, 'Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.' "  

2.  Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled.

Bill Gray Response:  That is a Preterist view which says that the prophecies of the end times were fulfilled in 70 AD when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.   Rather than reinvent the wheel, let me share from the writings of Dr. Ron Rhodes, of Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries.

* Th.D., Dallas Theological Seminary (1986). Major: Systematic Theology. Graduated with High Honors.
* Th.M., Dallas Theological Seminary (1983). Major: Systematic Theology. Graduated with Honors. Elected to Dean's List
* B.A., Houston Baptist University (1979). Recipient of the Greek Excellence Award.

As time permits, Dr. Rhodes teaches apologetics at Veritas Evangelical Seminary (Murrieta, CA), Dallas Theological Seminary, Talbot Seminary and Biola University (La Mirada, CA), and other well-known seminaries.

His thoughts on Preterist Theology:

A favorite argument among preterists is that the book of Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, and hence the book must have been fulfilled in A.D. 70 when Rome overran Jerusalem.  Futurists point out, however, that some of the earliest church Fathers confirmed a late date, including Irenaeus (who knew Polycarp, John’s disciple) who claimed the book was written at the close of the reign of Domitian (which took place from A.D. 81-96). 

Victorinus confirmed this date in the third century, as did Eusebius (263-340).  Hence, since the book was written after A.D. 70 - it could hardly have been referring to events that would be fulfilled in A.D. 70.

Against preterism, futurists note that key events described in the book of Revelation simply did not occur in A.D. 70.  For example, in A.D. 70 “a third of mankind” was not killed, as predicted in Revelation 9:18.  Nor has “every living creature in the sea died,” as predicted in Revelation 16:3.  In order to explain these texts, preterists must resort to an allegorical interpretation since they did not happen literally.

("The Problem with Preterism" - http://ronrhodes.addr.com/articles/the-problem-with-preterism.html)

We know that the apostle John wrote the book of Revelation on the island of Patmos during the reign of Emperor Domitian (81-96 AD) so it is accepted that the book of Revelation was written about 95 AD.  If the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was the fulfillment of end times prophecies - why did John not mention that in his book of Revelation?

3.  Maybe there is no life after death.

That is combination of the teachings of:

1. Annihilationism - that at death the sinner is merely destroyed rather than experience hell or the lake of fire.  Some of the churches which teach that are: Seventh-day Adventists, Bible Students (offshoot of Jehovah's Witnesses), Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, and followers of Herbert Armstrong.  And today it is a common theme in the "Feel Good" churches whose main purpose is to fill large churches - rather than teach the full Word of God.

And

2. There is no God - Atheists, Secularists, Humanists, etc., declare that God is not real, that there is no life after death.  Their teaching is that this life, no matter how long or short - is all there is, there is nothing more after death.  Yes, it is sad that people could be so hopeless.  But I can attest to the fact that even at the age of 81, having lived what some would call a pretty good, fun filled life - it would be so depressing to believe that this very brief time on earth is all there is - and there is no Blessed Hope of eternal life in Christ.

These are His promises of Eternal life:

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (eternal) life."

John 10:27-28, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord ."

1 John 2:25, "And this is the promise that He has promised us - eternal life."

1 John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

To deny these promises - is to deny God and His Written Word.  And keep in mind that the word "eternal" means "never ending."  When He promises us never ending life - are we going to believe Him - or should we believe the atheists?

4. I don't think anybody knows (for sure) that when we die that our souls go to heaven.

The best way to find assurance is to seek it in the Word of God.

Paul to the church in Philippi in Philippians 1:21-24, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.  But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.  For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.  Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you."

Paul to the church in Corinth in 2 Corinthians 5:7-8, "For we walk by faith, not by sight.  We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Promise directly from Jesus found in John 14:1-3, "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

And God's promise of the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:1617, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

These are absolute promises from God's Word of eternal life in the presence of Jesus Christ in heaven.  That said, I believe the Bible teaches that our eternal heaven will be on the New Earth found in Revelation 21.

5. Just to let you know I have read the Bible from the beginning to end seven times - and have no idea how many times I have read the new Testament.

That is great news.  And, Ray, in the short time we have been Facebook Friends - I have come to believe that you toss out rhetorical questions and comments - just to test my response.  I love it! 

The apostle Paul tells us in Acts 17:11 to always test the teaching and the teacher against Scripture. Not that I consider myself a teacher - more of a study leader or one who just loves to discuss God's Word.   But it is good that you test me.  Thank you, my Christian brother. 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill