PreTrib or PostTrib? ~ Is There Time In Heaven?

Today on the Facebook group page named "YE3C-Eschatology" (Young Earth Christian Creationist Coalition), a member, Nathanael, posted this dialogue starter:

"Last night I heard Pastor Jon Courson of the Calvary Chapel Movement confirm a prime argument for Post-Trib - and he is a Dispensationalist! Using Revelation 20:4-6, 2nd Corinthians 15:51-54 (B.G Note: should be 1 Corinthians 15:50-53), and 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 - he said the resurrection and rapture all seem to be at the same time - the beginning of the Millennium.  So, he had to find a way that the rapture could be 7 years earlier and this instant return could both be true.

He (Jon Courson) enlisted the assumption (that) Heaven has no time, which is an easily disprovable assumption.  He said since God is light, and in Relativity time stops at light speed - then Heaven is outside of time as we know it.  Consider Revelation 8:1, though, (KJV) "And when He (Jesus) had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

You cannot have silence for a half-hour unless there is time, and very comparable to our time down here.  Therefore, this very stupid argument to reconcile Pre-Trib with clear teachings of Scripture is a failure.  I am very glad to have my position confirmed by a hostile witness; always a pleasure to know I am believing Scripture without assumptions!"    

Nathanael, first let me say that I did not hear that particular teaching of Jon Courson, but I am quite sure from all his past teachings that he is a PreTrib Rapture and Premillennial Second Coming of Christ believer.  So, let's break down your first paragraph.

We know that 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 is describing the condition of our mortal bodies as being undeniably corrupt which cannot be accepted in heaven - and we know that believers will be changed from this corrupt mortal body into a heavenly immortal body when resurrected from the grave or snatched up at the Rapture.

And we know that 1 Thessalonians 14:13-18 is speaking of the Rapture, when Jesus Christ will come in the clouds to take His promised bride, the church, into heaven, i.e., the Rapture.

So, what is Revelation 20:4-6 telling us? 

Revelation 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.  Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.  And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

(1)  ~  "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them." 

From the commentary on Revelation 20 by David Guzik:

a. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them:  Who sits on these thrones?  Perhaps the twenty-four elders representing the church (Revelation 4:4), or the apostles (Matthew 19:28), or the company of saints as a whole (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).

i. And judgment was committed to them:  Perhaps this is the "judging of angels" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:2-3, but it is more likely that these are the saints ruling on and over the earth.

(2)  ~  "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."

This has to be speaking of the Tribulation believers, for only during the Tribulation will the "Mark of the Beast" be introduced.

From the commentary on Revelation 20 by David Guzik (Blue Letter Bible web site):

c. Who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus .  .  . who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark: All those who overcome in Jesus will rule and reign with Him (Revelation 2:26-28, 3:12,22, 1 Corinthians 6:2-3).  Why does John only mention the Tribulation saints?

i. They are specifically mentioned so as to encourage them, while not implying others will be left out.  This is special vindication for Tribulation saints.  They suffered under Antichrist who had said, "I will rule the earth" - now they are in authority and Antichrist is destroyed.  So, these martyrs are literal, but also representative of all that (who) give their lives in faithfulness to Jesus.

ii. Beheaded is actually broader word than it seems; the ancient Greek word really means "executed."

(3)  ~  "And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

This is the blessed promise for all believers from time eternal, i.e., Old Testament saints, New Testament saints (the church),  Tribulation saints, and Millennial saints.

Revelation 20:5,  "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.  This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead is referring to all non-believers, i.e, those who have been waiting in Hades/Torment (Luke 16:19-31) for their final judgment.  They will be raised from Hades/Torment at the end of the Millennial Kingdom to stand in punishment before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

From the commentary on Revelation 20 by David Guzik:

a. This is the first resurrection:  This first resurrection is the granting of resurrection life in resurrection bodies to all those who are dead in Jesus.
 
b. The rest of the dead:  Those who do not have part in the first resurrection are as cursed - as those who do have part in it are blessed. They are not blessed, they are under the power of the second death, and they are without privilege.

i. In John 5:28-29, Jesus described two resurrections:  "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good to the resurrection of life - and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
 
ii. The two events are separated by this 1,000 year period, because the rest of the dead are not given their resurrection bodies until the thousand years were finished.

Revelation 20:6,  "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.  Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

Nathanael, this is where I believer your confusion comes into play.  I believe Jon Courson was reflecting upon this teaching of David Guzik, where he, in his commentary, is comparing the view of PostTrib believers, i.e., the "first resurrection" is one single event - versus - the view of those of us who believe in the PreTrib Rapture, i.e., that the "first resurrection" is speaking of a time which began with the resurrection of Jesus Christ and ends with the resurrection (rapture) of the church and the Tribulation saints.

From the commentary on Revelation 20 by David Guzik:

c. If the first resurrection is a singular event, it argues well for a post-tribulation rapture - because it implies that all saints receive their resurrection bodies at the same time, immediately before the rule and reign of Jesus Christ.

d. If the first resurrection is an "order" or "class" encompassing previously dead believers (who are at once with the Lord), the raptured church (already in heaven) and saints from the Great Tribulation - then the idea fits in a pre-tribulation framework.

i. Donald Barnhouse says of the phrase first resurrection: "It must be especially emphasized that our phrase in the Apocalypse covering this resurrection is a retrospect that looks back over all three phases (of resurrection)."

ii. "'The 'first resurrection' is not an event - but an order of resurrection including all the righteous who are raised from the dead before the millennial kingdom begins."  (Walvoord)

Nathanael, let's look at the second part of your original post.  You tell us:

He (Jon Courson) enlisted the assumption (that) Heaven has no time, which is an easily disprovable assumption.  He said since God is light, and in Relativity time stops at light speed - then Heaven is outside of time as we know it.  Consider Revelation 8:1, though, (KJV) "And when He (Jesus) had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

You cannot have silence for a half-hour unless there is time, and very comparable to our time down here.  Therefore, this very stupid argument to reconcile Pre-Trib with clear teachings of Scripture is a failure.  I am very glad to have my position confirmed by a hostile witness; always a pleasure to know I am believing Scripture without assumptions!"                     

We live in an a four dimensional world, i.e,. height, width, length, time.    The Bible clearly teaches there is no time in heaven, for heaven is eternal.  The dimension of linear time (counting from year one progressively, until eternity for all believers begins) was a part of the Creation for mankind.  God has no need for a calendar nor for a watch.

I believe this excerpt from "What is God's relationship to time?" from GotQuestions.org explains that well:

We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time.  However, God dwells in a different dimension - the spirit realm - beyond the perception of our physical senses.  It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of His not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world (Isaiah 57:15).  Knowing that “God is spirit” (John 4:24), what is His relationship to time? .  .  .

In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it. .  .  .   God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future.  The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective.  A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

Though we cannot possibly comprehend this idea of eternity, or the timelessness of God, we in our finite minds try to confine an infinite God to our time schedule. .  .  .

Again, because of our finite minds, we can only grasp the concept of God’s timeless existence in part.  And in so doing, we describe Him as a God without a beginning or end, eternal, infinite, everlasting, etc.  Psalm 90:2 declares, “From everlasting to everlasting You are God” (see also Psalm 93:2).  He always was and always will be.

Nathanael,  I pray this clear up any confusion.   And I am firmly convinced that our Bible does teach a PreTrib Rapture of the church and a Premillennial Second Coming of Jesus Christ.  

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill