CAN A BORN-AGAIN CHILD OF GOD do anything to cause him/her to lose salvation? Can a born-again child of God give away or discard his salvation?
Those questions bring to mind the discussion between Jesus and the Pharisee Nicodemus in the John 3:
Just as a child which has been born from its mother's womb cannot decide to go back and not be born - a person who has truly been born-again and become a child of God, (John 1:12, 1 John 3:1-2) and adopted into His family (Ephesians 1:5-6, Galatians 4:5) - cannot be unborn again of God. We have His promise that no matter what we do - we cannot be snatched out of His hands or the Father's hands (John 10:28-29).
So, what happens when a truly born-again Christian does, in times of weakness or stress, commit a very bad sin?
That was the subject of a discussion I began in 2010 on the TimesDaily Religion Forum, in response to a question from a new forum member, Mike. And I also shared it in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter. This is my original post, which I have updated in this writing:
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ETERNAL SECURITY - YES OR NO? ~ Thu, 21 Jan 2010 22:24
Hi Mike,
First, let me say that regardless of whether believers are Calvinist, Arminians, or stand in between the two as I do - we are all forgiven sinners and belong to the Family of God. While I wave the Christian flag more than the Baptist flag - I am a Baptist. And, I find that most Baptists, at least the ones with whom I have been associating for the last twenty-two years (now thirty years), tend to also stand in the middle ground between these two extremes.
Unfortunately, the Southern Baptist Convention, over the past several decades, has had an influx of Calvinist teachings in many of their seminaries. For that reason, if I were to seriously look at joining a Southern Baptist church fellowship - I would first ask where that local congregation stands on Calvinism.
I also tend to lean more toward the philosophy of the Baptist General Conference (BGC) in dealing with church membership. In a BGC church, a person who regularly attends church and displays the fruit of Christian salvation is welcomed as a member if he/she so desires. If that person displays the fruit of a Christian walk and wants to participate in our Christian fellowship; we welcome him/her.
If at a later time, he/she displays a lifestyle not in accordance with the Christian life an elder, or the pastor, or both, will approach this person and seek to bring him/her back into step with what is expected of a Christian in the fellowship. If the person will not change that action or lifestyle which reflects negatively upon the person of Jesus Christ and refuses all pastoral/elder counseling - he/she will be asked to leave the fellowship. This is in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17.
On the other hand, most Southern Baptist churches have more stringent requirements and rules for becoming a member of the local church. But, this depends upon each local church.
Mike, you tell us, "Two very good books on the subject of the possibility of apostasy are; 'Grace, Faith, Free Will' by Robert Picirilli and 'Understanding Assurance & Salvation' by Picirilli. Both of these books can be previewed or ordered via Randall House Publications, out of Nashville, Tennessee."
On most issues, these are most likely very good books. However, since Dr. Picirilli teaches at a Free Will Baptist seminary and professes to follow the Arminian theology; I would have to discount that part of his books.
On the other hand, a very good book which stays in the middle ground is "How You Can Be Sure That You Will Spend Eternity With God," written by Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer, Senior Pastor of The Moody Church.
You say, "On a personal note, I do not believe in the 'once saved, always saved' view. I do not believe that just because a person has been baptized they are saved. I do believe that a person who is truly saved can reach a point in their life where they can lose their salvation. Where is that point? I have no idea. As a Free Will Baptist, we take the Arminian view of salvation."
Your first statement, "On a personal note, I do not believe in the 'once saved, always saved' view" reminds me of a Bible study we had about six years ago. One of the teenage girls in our Bible study invited her friend from school. The father, rightfully so, came with his daughter to see what was being taught in our Bible study. I commend him for this.
As the study proceeded, we began to discuss salvation. The man, who we found to be a strict Calvinist, spoke up saying that only those elected by God before the creation would have salvation. Our pastor and I discussed this issue with him for a few minutes. Then, I asked the man, "Do you believe God gave man free will?" And, he said emphatically, "No."
At this point, rather than let the Bible study go off on a tangent, we moved back into the mainstream of the study. There was no way we were going to convince this man - and, we most certainly did not want our people being taught Calvinism. So, we moved on.
Then, you say, "I do not believe that just because a person has been baptized they are saved."
I agree completely with that statement; for no one is saved through baptism. Baptism is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Savior. Our baptism by immersion is symbolic of that: the believer's death to sin is symbolic of His death - the believer's burial of the old life is symbolic of His burial - and the believer's resurrection (or rising from the water of baptism) to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus is symbolic of His resurrection.
That statement, or description of baptism, was paraphrased from the SBC web site and it is my belief. Baptism is a sign that we have salvation; not the means of our salvation.
Next, you say, "I do believe that a person who is truly saved can reach a point in their life where they can lose their salvation. Where is that point? I have no idea."
How do you relate this to John 3:16, "For God so loved the world (all people), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever (or whosoever in the King James, both mean "any person who") believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
And, to John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
Is Jesus wrong? Or, is Jesus lying? Or was Jacobus Arminius wrong? In whom will you place your faith - Jesus Christ or Jacobus Arminius?
You declare, "As a Free Will Baptist, we take the Arminian view of salvation."
And, you offer this explanation:
You say that you do not hold to this statement; yet, you then say that a person CAN lose his salvation, or choose to not be a Christian. How can such a person truly have any degree of eternal security - if he/she knows that, at some point in their life they could lose their salvation or be lured away from Christ?
Yet, Jesus Christ tells us, in John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. . ." ~ This tells me that these people, His sheep, are believers who have come to saving grace through and in Jesus Christ.
". . .and I give eternal life to them," ~ This tells me that this is an ironclad guaranty, one that no one can break. If Jesus gives a gift - there is no way He is going to take it back. And eternal does mean "never ending." If He gives us eternal "never ending" life and it can end, regardless of who ends it - how can it be eternal?
". . .and no one will snatch them out of My hand.. . . no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" ~ If this is not eternal security, how else could one find security? It says we are held tightly in the hands of both Jesus Christ and God the Father! That is ETERNAL SECURITY!
For a Christian believer to lose his/her salvation or to have him leave salvation - would mean that Satan has pulled or lured this person away out of the hands of Jesus Christ and God the Father. Do you really believe this is possible? The Bible teaches that is not possible.
Finally, Mike, you say, "Many people have the misconception that people who hold this view are saved, lost, saved, lost, etc.. THIS IS NOT what we believe. As a personal example, if I commit a sin am I going to heaven? Yes, we believe that I will go to heaven. The question or problem becomes, 'What if a person, "who was once enlightened" continues to make a practice of a sinful life and turns away from the teachings of Christ?' Sorry to ramble, but I do hope this helps some."
I wondered how long it would take someone in this discussion to bring in Hebrews 6. But, rather than reinvent the wheel, I will share with you what Pastor Chuck Smith, late founder and senior pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, a non-denominational church movement, has written in his commentary on Hebrews 6:
I have been meaning to write something on Hebrews 6 for a while. But, Pastor Chuck's explanation is very clear, down to earth, and right on target. No, a born-again Christian believer cannot lose his salvation. A person once saved - HAS the firm promise of Jesus Christ that NO ONE can snatch him/her out of His hands - the firm promise that he who believes HAS Eternal Life in Christ.
In closing let's examine the writings of one other recognized and acknowledged Christian teacher and theologian, Dr. J. Vernon McGee:
Mike, since I have not seen you on the Religion Forum before - let me say, "Welcome!" I welcome another Christian brother to the TimesDaily Religion Forum.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Those questions bring to mind the discussion between Jesus and the Pharisee Nicodemus in the John 3:
John 3:3-8, "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'
Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?'
Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Just as a child which has been born from its mother's womb cannot decide to go back and not be born - a person who has truly been born-again and become a child of God, (John 1:12, 1 John 3:1-2) and adopted into His family (Ephesians 1:5-6, Galatians 4:5) - cannot be unborn again of God. We have His promise that no matter what we do - we cannot be snatched out of His hands or the Father's hands (John 10:28-29).
So, what happens when a truly born-again Christian does, in times of weakness or stress, commit a very bad sin?
That was the subject of a discussion I began in 2010 on the TimesDaily Religion Forum, in response to a question from a new forum member, Mike. And I also shared it in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter. This is my original post, which I have updated in this writing:
~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
ETERNAL SECURITY - YES OR NO? ~ Thu, 21 Jan 2010 22:24
Hi Mike,
First, let me say that regardless of whether believers are Calvinist, Arminians, or stand in between the two as I do - we are all forgiven sinners and belong to the Family of God. While I wave the Christian flag more than the Baptist flag - I am a Baptist. And, I find that most Baptists, at least the ones with whom I have been associating for the last twenty-two years (now thirty years), tend to also stand in the middle ground between these two extremes.
Unfortunately, the Southern Baptist Convention, over the past several decades, has had an influx of Calvinist teachings in many of their seminaries. For that reason, if I were to seriously look at joining a Southern Baptist church fellowship - I would first ask where that local congregation stands on Calvinism.
I also tend to lean more toward the philosophy of the Baptist General Conference (BGC) in dealing with church membership. In a BGC church, a person who regularly attends church and displays the fruit of Christian salvation is welcomed as a member if he/she so desires. If that person displays the fruit of a Christian walk and wants to participate in our Christian fellowship; we welcome him/her.
If at a later time, he/she displays a lifestyle not in accordance with the Christian life an elder, or the pastor, or both, will approach this person and seek to bring him/her back into step with what is expected of a Christian in the fellowship. If the person will not change that action or lifestyle which reflects negatively upon the person of Jesus Christ and refuses all pastoral/elder counseling - he/she will be asked to leave the fellowship. This is in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17.
Footnote: The denomination I refer to as the BGC was first called the Swedish Baptist General Conference in 1875 - then Baptist General Conference in 1945 - then Converge Worldwide in 2008 - and in 2015 it was shortened to just Converge. Since during most of the years I was in those churches, it was BGC, I still think of them in that light.
On the other hand, most Southern Baptist churches have more stringent requirements and rules for becoming a member of the local church. But, this depends upon each local church.
Mike, you tell us, "Two very good books on the subject of the possibility of apostasy are; 'Grace, Faith, Free Will' by Robert Picirilli and 'Understanding Assurance & Salvation' by Picirilli. Both of these books can be previewed or ordered via Randall House Publications, out of Nashville, Tennessee."
On most issues, these are most likely very good books. However, since Dr. Picirilli teaches at a Free Will Baptist seminary and professes to follow the Arminian theology; I would have to discount that part of his books.
On the other hand, a very good book which stays in the middle ground is "How You Can Be Sure That You Will Spend Eternity With God," written by Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer, Senior Pastor of The Moody Church.
You say, "On a personal note, I do not believe in the 'once saved, always saved' view. I do not believe that just because a person has been baptized they are saved. I do believe that a person who is truly saved can reach a point in their life where they can lose their salvation. Where is that point? I have no idea. As a Free Will Baptist, we take the Arminian view of salvation."
Your first statement, "On a personal note, I do not believe in the 'once saved, always saved' view" reminds me of a Bible study we had about six years ago. One of the teenage girls in our Bible study invited her friend from school. The father, rightfully so, came with his daughter to see what was being taught in our Bible study. I commend him for this.
As the study proceeded, we began to discuss salvation. The man, who we found to be a strict Calvinist, spoke up saying that only those elected by God before the creation would have salvation. Our pastor and I discussed this issue with him for a few minutes. Then, I asked the man, "Do you believe God gave man free will?" And, he said emphatically, "No."
At this point, rather than let the Bible study go off on a tangent, we moved back into the mainstream of the study. There was no way we were going to convince this man - and, we most certainly did not want our people being taught Calvinism. So, we moved on.
Then, you say, "I do not believe that just because a person has been baptized they are saved."
I agree completely with that statement; for no one is saved through baptism. Baptism is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Savior. Our baptism by immersion is symbolic of that: the believer's death to sin is symbolic of His death - the believer's burial of the old life is symbolic of His burial - and the believer's resurrection (or rising from the water of baptism) to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus is symbolic of His resurrection.
That statement, or description of baptism, was paraphrased from the SBC web site and it is my belief. Baptism is a sign that we have salvation; not the means of our salvation.
Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water. …It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. (http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp)
Next, you say, "I do believe that a person who is truly saved can reach a point in their life where they can lose their salvation. Where is that point? I have no idea."
How do you relate this to John 3:16, "For God so loved the world (all people), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever (or whosoever in the King James, both mean "any person who") believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
And, to John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
Is Jesus wrong? Or, is Jesus lying? Or was Jacobus Arminius wrong? In whom will you place your faith - Jesus Christ or Jacobus Arminius?
You declare, "As a Free Will Baptist, we take the Arminian view of salvation."
And, you offer this explanation:
Jacobus Arminius' teaching: "No one, not even a believer, can rest in His eternal security - for everyone will always be wondering if and when they will lose their salvation - or, if they ever had it." As a rule of thumb, we do not hold to that particular statement. We believe that a Christian is secure in their salvation - until they reach a point in their life, by personal choice, to abandon the faith.
You say that you do not hold to this statement; yet, you then say that a person CAN lose his salvation, or choose to not be a Christian. How can such a person truly have any degree of eternal security - if he/she knows that, at some point in their life they could lose their salvation or be lured away from Christ?
Yet, Jesus Christ tells us, in John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. . ." ~ This tells me that these people, His sheep, are believers who have come to saving grace through and in Jesus Christ.
". . .and I give eternal life to them," ~ This tells me that this is an ironclad guaranty, one that no one can break. If Jesus gives a gift - there is no way He is going to take it back. And eternal does mean "never ending." If He gives us eternal "never ending" life and it can end, regardless of who ends it - how can it be eternal?
". . .and no one will snatch them out of My hand.. . . no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" ~ If this is not eternal security, how else could one find security? It says we are held tightly in the hands of both Jesus Christ and God the Father! That is ETERNAL SECURITY!
For a Christian believer to lose his/her salvation or to have him leave salvation - would mean that Satan has pulled or lured this person away out of the hands of Jesus Christ and God the Father. Do you really believe this is possible? The Bible teaches that is not possible.
Finally, Mike, you say, "Many people have the misconception that people who hold this view are saved, lost, saved, lost, etc.. THIS IS NOT what we believe. As a personal example, if I commit a sin am I going to heaven? Yes, we believe that I will go to heaven. The question or problem becomes, 'What if a person, "who was once enlightened" continues to make a practice of a sinful life and turns away from the teachings of Christ?' Sorry to ramble, but I do hope this helps some."
I wondered how long it would take someone in this discussion to bring in Hebrews 6. But, rather than reinvent the wheel, I will share with you what Pastor Chuck Smith, late founder and senior pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, a non-denominational church movement, has written in his commentary on Hebrews 6:
Hebrews 6:1-3, "Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permits."
Let's leave these basic principles, i.e., doctrines of salvation and redemption. Let's go (further) on into maturity. Let's go on into a mature experience with God. Let's develop in our walk with the Lord. Let's mature. Let's grow up.
For years in my ministry I sought to be a preacher. I was a preacher. And I sought to be an evangelist. Just about every message that I preached was evangelistic, because within the denomination where I was serving, evangelism was the big thing. First thing on my report (to the denomination headquarters), I had to put how many people were saved - and if you don't have some in that box, then you're not going to look good to the bishop. So I sought to be an evangelist.
I preached the gospel. But I came to the realization, after years of frustration, that preaching is for the unconverted. What the converted needs is teaching.
God had called me to be a teacher - but I was seeking to be a preacher. As I preached, the church never developed. It never matured. The people didn't mature. I kept them in a state of spiritual arrested development. All they knew was the doctrine of salvation. They knew it well. They knew they had to be born again. They knew they had to repent from their sins. They knew they had to be baptized, because that is all they ever heard.
And we never took them beyond that state of spiritual infancy - until we began to teach the Word of God. Leaving these first principles, the doctrine of Christ, going on into the full maturity, not going back, over and over again, the foundations of faith - but building on that foundation the whole knowledge of God through the Word (through expositional teaching).
The author (of Hebrews) says something here that is difficult to understand.
Hebrews 6:4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come - and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, (not to salvation, but to repentance) since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
I know that this is a passage of Scripture that Satan loves to use. Satan loves to use Scripture. He came to Eve with Scripture, "Hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" He came to Jesus with Scripture, "It is written He will give His angels charge over Thee to carry Thee in all Thy ways lest at any time You dash Your foot against a stone." He came to Jesus with Scripture, but what Jesus then did was balance Scripture with Scripture. Taking Scripture out of its context, you can make it mean something else. Taking Scripture and isolating it, you can make it mean something else. We must compare Scripture with Scripture.
What do we know that the Scripture teaches? That a man may fail, that a man may even blaspheme, and still find forgiveness. For we remember that Jesus said to Peter, "Before the cock crows, you are going to deny Me three times." Peter said, "If they would kill me, I would never deny You." After the cock crowed twice, Jesus turned over and looked at Peter, and Peter realized he had denied Him three times. The last time was blasphemy, saying, "I don't know the man."
And he went out and he wept bitterly. But Peter found forgiveness. He found restoration and he became one of the pillars of the early church, an apostle, a leader of men. So it doesn't mean that if I falter, or if I fall or I fail - that I'm out, (it does not mean) that God puts me out and I have no hope of redemption. (It doesn't mean that) it's impossible that I might be renewed unto repentance.
We know that God is gracious. We know that God is merciful. We know that God is long-suffering. We know that He is patient and (that) He has not rewarded us according to our iniquities. But as high as the heaven is above the earth, so high are the mercies of God towards those who fear Him. Satan often uses these verses (Hebrews 6:4-6) to a person who has backslidden . He says, "Man, you are out. Do you see what it says here in Hebrews? You've had it. That was the unpardonable sin that you committed and there is no way to renew you to repentance. You are out of the game."
This is one of those scriptures that we have to deal with often as a pastor. When people come, you can tell it - you can see it in their eyes, and they say, "I think I've committed the unpardonable sin." We even have them calling on the phone long distance, "I believe I've committed the unpardonable sin."
And I always tell them, "I know you have not."
"Well, how do you know?"
"Because you asked. Because you called." If you (had) committed the unpardonable sin, you wouldn't care. The Holy Spirit wouldn't be dealing with you at all. You'd be so cold, callous, and indifferent - that you wouldn't even care if you had. The fact that you are concerned and care - is the sign that you haven't. God's Spirit is still dealing with you.
But Satan loves to use this as a club over people's head and he beats them to death with it.
I have been meaning to write something on Hebrews 6 for a while. But, Pastor Chuck's explanation is very clear, down to earth, and right on target. No, a born-again Christian believer cannot lose his salvation. A person once saved - HAS the firm promise of Jesus Christ that NO ONE can snatch him/her out of His hands - the firm promise that he who believes HAS Eternal Life in Christ.
In closing let's examine the writings of one other recognized and acknowledged Christian teacher and theologian, Dr. J. Vernon McGee:
From J. Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible Series
From "Hebrews Chapters 1-7," by Dr. J. Vernon McGee, pages 109-110
First of all, let me call to your attention that the writer is not discussing the question of salvation in this passage (Hebrews 6:1-6). I believe he is describing saved people. They have been enlightened, they have tasted of the heavenly gift, they have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and they have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come.
The whole tenor of the text reveals that he is speaking of rewards which are the result of salvation. In verse 6 he says, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance" - not to salvation, but to repentance.
Mike, since I have not seen you on the Religion Forum before - let me say, "Welcome!" I welcome another Christian brother to the TimesDaily Religion Forum.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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