HELL FIRE OR SAVING GRACE? ~ Which would Jesus Christ have you
share? Several days ago I shared an article about a Pentecostal
pastor titled "Fiery Pentecostal Keeps Preaching Bible Truth
Even As Churchgoers Walk Out." And my post received mixed
comments, which is normal in an active Christian discussion. Such
comments make for good Bible discussions.
The article tells us:
And I posted:
Not Sure We Have The Whole Story Here! ~ While I agree with this pastor that the Bible indeed does teach against the LGBTQ lifestyle, same-sex marriage, and abortion - I am not sure I would call hell fire down upon their heads.
Yes, we can preach that God will send hell fire down on all sinners (forgetting that we, too, are only forgiven sinners) - and we will save some. But the measuring stick which I believe Christ will look at more closely is, "How MANY did we let get away?" Because we wanted to condemn them for their sins - instead of leading them out of that sin lifestyle?
Imagine yourself in heaven one day and a person comes to you and says, "Thank you for sharing the Gospel with me in a way I could understand. That is when I became a believer. Thank you also for my family - for I later shared the Gospel with them and they were saved."
But, on the other hand, how many folks rejected your message and condemned themselves to hell? Would they say to you, "You were my friend. Why didn't you tell me about Jesus, His love, and His forgiveness?"
Which person, in their afterlife, would you rather remember, eternally?
Jesus addresses a similar situation in this parable:
But after sharing my original post, I suppose the greatest moment of deja vu for me came when a Friend and Christian sister, Janice S., posted:
Her comment raised ghosts from my past. When I about 12 years old, my mom asked me to go with her and my step-dad to a Wednesday Night Revival Meeting at a local church. I could not say no to her. The Revival Meeting started, the Revival Preacher gets up a full head of steam - and then he announced, "Everyone stand up!" We all stood. Then he told us, "Now, everyone who is saved, sit down." Even though I did not really understand what it meant to "be saved" - I had to figure I was not. So, I remained standing. I knew it was something I should not lie about, even with no understanding.
Then that Revival Preacher made his fateful declaration, "The rest of you just keep standing there until you decide to come forward and be saved!"
If I had been an adult at that time, I would have given him a one finger salute and walked out. But being a 12 year old boy, especially in the South, I could not be that disrespectful. So I had no choice. I had to keep standing there while folks looked at me - or go forward. And, boy, the spark in that Revival Preacher's eye when he saw me coming down the aisle! Today, thinking back, I imagine his thoughts at that time would have been, "Hallelujah, here come a young boy and I am going to personally drag him into heaven, into the family of God!"
I went to the altar and that preacher and several others, maybe local elders and the local preacher, etc. - all starting laying hands on me, praying loudly, shouting, "Hallelujah" - and, yes, I got caught up in that emotion and thought I was saved, whatever that meant. Not that evening, nor at any other time back then - did anyone bother to explain to me what it meant to "be saved." In hindsight, I would suggest that I was just one more number, another supposedly saved soul, on that traveling Revival Preacher's resume - and that is all.
I will admit that I felt something when I left the church. But today I realize that it was only emotion. That night I went home a saved person, right? Wrong! And laying in bed that night this preteen boy began to have carnal thoughts about girls at my school. Whoa! How could that happen? I was saved tonight, right? No, you were hustled.
That night my self-esteem and my self-image, went right down the drain. Boy, now I was really a lost sinner! For I had been saved tonight (whatever that meant) - and here I was having such carnal thoughts. I was hopeless. That was the confused and more lost than ever 12 year old Bill Gray, a creation of that loud, pulpit pounding, foot stomping Pentecostal Revival Preacher!
That mindset stayed with me as I finished high school and went into the Air Force. I had one possible avenue out of sure destruction. I had to find a church which would tell me there is no hell. If there is no hell - then why worry? That became my quest - to find that church which would assure me there is no hell. And I did.
When I was 20 years old, I was stationed at Bergstrom Air Force Base in Austin, Texas - and I found a chaplain from a major Protestant denomination who assured me, "Hell is only a myth." Praise the Lord! Now I can continue to live my carnal life and not have to worry about hell.
Yet, down deep, I really knew that was not true. But on the surface, it at least gave me a way to cover up my guilt as I continued my worldly lifestyle. That persisted until I was 50 years old, when I met a man of God named Pastor Sam Lacanienta. He began to teach me the real Truth - and he and the Filipino congregation at the Fil-Am Church of Irvine (FACI) loved me all the way to the cross. In our interactive Bible study discussions, and at church, he taught me about God and what it meant to be a true believer. And, in 1987, at the age of 50 I became a born-again believer. I finally broke the bond of self-destruction created by that traveling Revival Preacher in my Alabama hometown so many years before.
Yet, because of that Revival Preacher when I was 12 years old - I still have a strong negative reaction when "Preachers" like TD Jakes, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, and other preachers start stomping their feet, pounding on the pulpit, and yelling their sermons - instead of just conversationally sharing the Gospel to me. That is why I enjoy listening to Pastor Charles Stanley share the story of Jesus' love. He talks to me. And that is how Pastor Sam led me to the Lord, through talking with me in his sermons and Bible studies about Jesus Christ. If Pastor Sam had been another fiery TD Jakes style preacher - likely today I would not be a Christian believer.
My wife tells me, "Just let it go. That happened a long time ago." And I ask her, "If you had been raped at the age of 12, would it still bother you at times? Could things cause those ghosts to resurface?" We all know that answer to that question. Yes, a young rape victim lives a lifetime with those ghosts. And as I have revisited that childhood evening so long ago, I realize that I was raped - "spiritually raped" by that Revival Preacher.
I am sure that most of us, if not all - still ghosts from the past, some large, others small. Have you ever taken a serious look at yourself and asked, "Why does that still bother me?" - or - "Why do I have that reaction, those feelings when I experience this? Why does it still trouble me?" While I am not on a psychotherapy kick nor am I ghost hunting - I have long recognized that there were events from my childhood which still bother me, which still cause reactions in me, today. But none as strong as the ghost created by that traveling Revival Preacher.
We, as adults, often view problems of childhood with our children as trivial, not really serious. We may not realize that some hurts can go deep. And telling them, "Oh, don't let that bother you" very often does not work. Even as an adult, looking back on personal childhood traumas, it is easy to rationalize, "That happened so long ago, forget about it!" Very often easier said than done. And when TD Jakes and other such preachers start yelling and pounding the pulpit - even as a Christian believer today, I still get the urge to walk out.
So back to my original thought, the Pentecostal pastor speaking in the article, "Fiery Pentecostal Keeps Preaching Bible Truth Even As Churchgoers Walk Out." Yes, I can understand why some folks would walk out. And I still have to question if his fiery sermons are the right way to share the truth of the Gospel with folks who really need to hear the Gospel. It is often not the message, but the delivery of the message which draws folks toward the altar - or drives them out the door. And, even if many do come forward - out of emotion, fear, etc., instead of being drawn by the Holy Spirit - how many of them will be replicas of my 12 year old Bill Gray from so long ago?
While I would never advocate nor support a "Feel Good Gospel" church, I do believe we can deliver the Gospel in a way that will draw more folks toward the altar, instead of out the door. After spending a large part of my life in computer industry field service, sales, and marketing, I have learned a few things about selling. The first thing I learned is that you want the potential customer to be at ease with you, to be receptive, to feel that you are a friend talking with him/her about something he/she needs. In this case, Jesus Christ and eternal life.
Sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ "IS" a form of selling. A person can be selling a physical product, i.e., car, computer, etc. - or that person can be selling a concept, a belief. That belief can be the Gospel, or it can be the advantages of a new smart phone. The principal behind the sales effort is effectively the same - you want the person to trust you, believe you, and to truly hear what you have to say about your product.
NO, I am not suggesting a "feel good" message - leaving out the parts that could make folks uncomfortable. Doing that is to do a great disservice to people who need to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. People need to know that hell is a real place. And that it is the only alternative to eternal life in heaven.
What I am suggesting is that folks like TD Jakes who "yell" the Gospel at folks - often drive people away from Christ. Just as that Revival Preacher drove 12 year old Bill Gray away from God until I was 50 years old. We all know what would have happened if I had died before I was saved at fifty. If that had happened, would I have been another number in that Revival Preachers heavenly tally sheet? No, I would have been another lost soul in eternal hell.
Because of that Revival Preacher experience when I was 12 years old, the words "preacher" and "preach" have become like salt in a wound to me. To this day I cannot be comfortable calling anyone "preacher." I have many pastor Friends, many solid Bible teaching Friends - and I call them pastor, teacher, brother - but never preacher. Why? In my mind (with that 12 year old boy still wandering around in there) you can either preach at me - OR - you can teach me. While I love having knowledgeable folks teach me - do it by talking to me, not preaching at me.
Sharing the Gospel, to me, is teaching, not preaching. Yet, many times over the years on forums, etc., when I post on forums I have had people say to me, "Bill, stop preaching at us! Stop hitting us over the head with your Bible!" And, I suppose that, to a non-believer, any mention of Jesus Christ, salvation, the Bible, etc., is preaching and Bible slamming. If we are to be effective witnesses, we will always face those types of accusations from non-believers. I have one long time (fifty years) dear Friend on Facebook who told me, "Bill, why are you always quoting the Bible in your posts? Why can't you answer without the Bible?"
And, I responded to her, "Thank you for noticing that my first authority is always the Bible. And in an answer when the Bible is the best explanation - why not use it?" Obviously she knows enough of the Bible to have Scripture make her feel uncomfortable, the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, which is good.
Yet I will admit that we do have to be careful when sharing with non-believers - for we do NOT want to make them feel that we are beating them over the head with our Bible. Such relationships call for sensitivity and timing. Many times our witness to them, for a while, will need to be only our Christ-like love for them. I have a Friend who is a missionary to a Muslim community where he cannot share or even speak of the Bible - or the elders of that Muslim community will ban him from having a relationship with their people. In that case, his witness can only be his Godly Christ reflecting love, and his willingness to help them with their daily needs.
How is your witness? Are you comfortable "talking" with a non-believing friend or family member about Jesus Christ and His eternal life-giving Gospel? Can you effectively share the Biblical doctrines which you and your church believe and teach?
Let me close by summarizing. Yes, we should share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with all our heart and Christian love. But be sure your sharing is drawing that person closer to knowing Him as Savior - and not making him/her look for the nearest exit.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
The article tells us:
The Assemblies of God Pastor was preaching on "Fire Starters," according to TRUNews, and addressing one of the most hot-button issues facing the Church community today: Homosexuality. "I used Elijah as the example of a 'Fire Starter,' and our need to raise up a new generation of 'Fire Starters' who would not be afraid to confront false religions (like Islam) and corrupt culture," Bates tells Charisma News. . . .
(He) went on to say, "We need 'Fire Starters,' like Elijah, who will call fire down from heaven to confront the culture and false religions with undeniable, uncompromising truth and without political correctness. It was at this point that I began to see people getting up, walking out, shaking their heads."
And I posted:
Not Sure We Have The Whole Story Here! ~ While I agree with this pastor that the Bible indeed does teach against the LGBTQ lifestyle, same-sex marriage, and abortion - I am not sure I would call hell fire down upon their heads.
Yes, we can preach that God will send hell fire down on all sinners (forgetting that we, too, are only forgiven sinners) - and we will save some. But the measuring stick which I believe Christ will look at more closely is, "How MANY did we let get away?" Because we wanted to condemn them for their sins - instead of leading them out of that sin lifestyle?
Imagine yourself in heaven one day and a person comes to you and says, "Thank you for sharing the Gospel with me in a way I could understand. That is when I became a believer. Thank you also for my family - for I later shared the Gospel with them and they were saved."
But, on the other hand, how many folks rejected your message and condemned themselves to hell? Would they say to you, "You were my friend. Why didn't you tell me about Jesus, His love, and His forgiveness?"
Which person, in their afterlife, would you rather remember, eternally?
Jesus addresses a similar situation in this parable:
Luke 15:4-6, "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' "
But after sharing my original post, I suppose the greatest moment of deja vu for me came when a Friend and Christian sister, Janice S., posted:
Janice S: As a fifth grader my Mom took me to a revival at an evening service in our church. We were not seated together because she sat in the choir. The sermon ended and the invitational was next. Promptly the lights went out and the guest minister starting beating on something ferociously loud (Bill's note: probably the pulpit, or stomping his foot). I was so scared I followed others to the altar. As an adult this bothers me. I was scared into this decision. It just doesn't seem right.
Her comment raised ghosts from my past. When I about 12 years old, my mom asked me to go with her and my step-dad to a Wednesday Night Revival Meeting at a local church. I could not say no to her. The Revival Meeting started, the Revival Preacher gets up a full head of steam - and then he announced, "Everyone stand up!" We all stood. Then he told us, "Now, everyone who is saved, sit down." Even though I did not really understand what it meant to "be saved" - I had to figure I was not. So, I remained standing. I knew it was something I should not lie about, even with no understanding.
Then that Revival Preacher made his fateful declaration, "The rest of you just keep standing there until you decide to come forward and be saved!"
If I had been an adult at that time, I would have given him a one finger salute and walked out. But being a 12 year old boy, especially in the South, I could not be that disrespectful. So I had no choice. I had to keep standing there while folks looked at me - or go forward. And, boy, the spark in that Revival Preacher's eye when he saw me coming down the aisle! Today, thinking back, I imagine his thoughts at that time would have been, "Hallelujah, here come a young boy and I am going to personally drag him into heaven, into the family of God!"
I went to the altar and that preacher and several others, maybe local elders and the local preacher, etc. - all starting laying hands on me, praying loudly, shouting, "Hallelujah" - and, yes, I got caught up in that emotion and thought I was saved, whatever that meant. Not that evening, nor at any other time back then - did anyone bother to explain to me what it meant to "be saved." In hindsight, I would suggest that I was just one more number, another supposedly saved soul, on that traveling Revival Preacher's resume - and that is all.
I will admit that I felt something when I left the church. But today I realize that it was only emotion. That night I went home a saved person, right? Wrong! And laying in bed that night this preteen boy began to have carnal thoughts about girls at my school. Whoa! How could that happen? I was saved tonight, right? No, you were hustled.
That night my self-esteem and my self-image, went right down the drain. Boy, now I was really a lost sinner! For I had been saved tonight (whatever that meant) - and here I was having such carnal thoughts. I was hopeless. That was the confused and more lost than ever 12 year old Bill Gray, a creation of that loud, pulpit pounding, foot stomping Pentecostal Revival Preacher!
That mindset stayed with me as I finished high school and went into the Air Force. I had one possible avenue out of sure destruction. I had to find a church which would tell me there is no hell. If there is no hell - then why worry? That became my quest - to find that church which would assure me there is no hell. And I did.
When I was 20 years old, I was stationed at Bergstrom Air Force Base in Austin, Texas - and I found a chaplain from a major Protestant denomination who assured me, "Hell is only a myth." Praise the Lord! Now I can continue to live my carnal life and not have to worry about hell.
Yet, down deep, I really knew that was not true. But on the surface, it at least gave me a way to cover up my guilt as I continued my worldly lifestyle. That persisted until I was 50 years old, when I met a man of God named Pastor Sam Lacanienta. He began to teach me the real Truth - and he and the Filipino congregation at the Fil-Am Church of Irvine (FACI) loved me all the way to the cross. In our interactive Bible study discussions, and at church, he taught me about God and what it meant to be a true believer. And, in 1987, at the age of 50 I became a born-again believer. I finally broke the bond of self-destruction created by that traveling Revival Preacher in my Alabama hometown so many years before.
Yet, because of that Revival Preacher when I was 12 years old - I still have a strong negative reaction when "Preachers" like TD Jakes, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, and other preachers start stomping their feet, pounding on the pulpit, and yelling their sermons - instead of just conversationally sharing the Gospel to me. That is why I enjoy listening to Pastor Charles Stanley share the story of Jesus' love. He talks to me. And that is how Pastor Sam led me to the Lord, through talking with me in his sermons and Bible studies about Jesus Christ. If Pastor Sam had been another fiery TD Jakes style preacher - likely today I would not be a Christian believer.
My wife tells me, "Just let it go. That happened a long time ago." And I ask her, "If you had been raped at the age of 12, would it still bother you at times? Could things cause those ghosts to resurface?" We all know that answer to that question. Yes, a young rape victim lives a lifetime with those ghosts. And as I have revisited that childhood evening so long ago, I realize that I was raped - "spiritually raped" by that Revival Preacher.
I am sure that most of us, if not all - still ghosts from the past, some large, others small. Have you ever taken a serious look at yourself and asked, "Why does that still bother me?" - or - "Why do I have that reaction, those feelings when I experience this? Why does it still trouble me?" While I am not on a psychotherapy kick nor am I ghost hunting - I have long recognized that there were events from my childhood which still bother me, which still cause reactions in me, today. But none as strong as the ghost created by that traveling Revival Preacher.
We, as adults, often view problems of childhood with our children as trivial, not really serious. We may not realize that some hurts can go deep. And telling them, "Oh, don't let that bother you" very often does not work. Even as an adult, looking back on personal childhood traumas, it is easy to rationalize, "That happened so long ago, forget about it!" Very often easier said than done. And when TD Jakes and other such preachers start yelling and pounding the pulpit - even as a Christian believer today, I still get the urge to walk out.
So back to my original thought, the Pentecostal pastor speaking in the article, "Fiery Pentecostal Keeps Preaching Bible Truth Even As Churchgoers Walk Out." Yes, I can understand why some folks would walk out. And I still have to question if his fiery sermons are the right way to share the truth of the Gospel with folks who really need to hear the Gospel. It is often not the message, but the delivery of the message which draws folks toward the altar - or drives them out the door. And, even if many do come forward - out of emotion, fear, etc., instead of being drawn by the Holy Spirit - how many of them will be replicas of my 12 year old Bill Gray from so long ago?
While I would never advocate nor support a "Feel Good Gospel" church, I do believe we can deliver the Gospel in a way that will draw more folks toward the altar, instead of out the door. After spending a large part of my life in computer industry field service, sales, and marketing, I have learned a few things about selling. The first thing I learned is that you want the potential customer to be at ease with you, to be receptive, to feel that you are a friend talking with him/her about something he/she needs. In this case, Jesus Christ and eternal life.
Sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ "IS" a form of selling. A person can be selling a physical product, i.e., car, computer, etc. - or that person can be selling a concept, a belief. That belief can be the Gospel, or it can be the advantages of a new smart phone. The principal behind the sales effort is effectively the same - you want the person to trust you, believe you, and to truly hear what you have to say about your product.
NO, I am not suggesting a "feel good" message - leaving out the parts that could make folks uncomfortable. Doing that is to do a great disservice to people who need to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. People need to know that hell is a real place. And that it is the only alternative to eternal life in heaven.
What I am suggesting is that folks like TD Jakes who "yell" the Gospel at folks - often drive people away from Christ. Just as that Revival Preacher drove 12 year old Bill Gray away from God until I was 50 years old. We all know what would have happened if I had died before I was saved at fifty. If that had happened, would I have been another number in that Revival Preachers heavenly tally sheet? No, I would have been another lost soul in eternal hell.
Because of that Revival Preacher experience when I was 12 years old, the words "preacher" and "preach" have become like salt in a wound to me. To this day I cannot be comfortable calling anyone "preacher." I have many pastor Friends, many solid Bible teaching Friends - and I call them pastor, teacher, brother - but never preacher. Why? In my mind (with that 12 year old boy still wandering around in there) you can either preach at me - OR - you can teach me. While I love having knowledgeable folks teach me - do it by talking to me, not preaching at me.
Sharing the Gospel, to me, is teaching, not preaching. Yet, many times over the years on forums, etc., when I post on forums I have had people say to me, "Bill, stop preaching at us! Stop hitting us over the head with your Bible!" And, I suppose that, to a non-believer, any mention of Jesus Christ, salvation, the Bible, etc., is preaching and Bible slamming. If we are to be effective witnesses, we will always face those types of accusations from non-believers. I have one long time (fifty years) dear Friend on Facebook who told me, "Bill, why are you always quoting the Bible in your posts? Why can't you answer without the Bible?"
And, I responded to her, "Thank you for noticing that my first authority is always the Bible. And in an answer when the Bible is the best explanation - why not use it?" Obviously she knows enough of the Bible to have Scripture make her feel uncomfortable, the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, which is good.
Yet I will admit that we do have to be careful when sharing with non-believers - for we do NOT want to make them feel that we are beating them over the head with our Bible. Such relationships call for sensitivity and timing. Many times our witness to them, for a while, will need to be only our Christ-like love for them. I have a Friend who is a missionary to a Muslim community where he cannot share or even speak of the Bible - or the elders of that Muslim community will ban him from having a relationship with their people. In that case, his witness can only be his Godly Christ reflecting love, and his willingness to help them with their daily needs.
How is your witness? Are you comfortable "talking" with a non-believing friend or family member about Jesus Christ and His eternal life-giving Gospel? Can you effectively share the Biblical doctrines which you and your church believe and teach?
Let me close by summarizing. Yes, we should share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with all our heart and Christian love. But be sure your sharing is drawing that person closer to knowing Him as Savior - and not making him/her look for the nearest exit.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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