For
almost thirty years, I have been doing a Christian edification and
apologetics ministry via e-mail and for about twenty years via internet
and social media. When my Friends respond to one of my e-mails or
social media posts, it really makes
me happy - even if that Friend disagrees with me. That is one
of the main purposes of my e-mail and internet ministry, to get
people
talking. I really enjoy interactive Bible studies; ones where
everyone is involved in discussions, even if the discussion gets
heated at times (hopefully not too heated and not too often).
That is how we learn and grow more mature in God's Word, by walking and talking through Scripture, verse by verse. When discussing a Scripture passage or verse, we should strive to discover what the writer meant, what message God intended for us in that portion of Scripture. What did the writer mean in that verse? Why did he make that point? That is what makes fruitful Bible studies. And that is what makes fruitful e-mail ministries.
One of the blessings of having a Christian writing cyber-ministry is that it gives me an opportunity to communicate with people from all walks of life, of differing faith beliefs, and from many nations. The dialogue below is from 2006 and includes responses from a blog I wrote about "Feel Good and Prosperity, aka, Name It And Claim It" theology preachers:
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
From March 17, 2006:
Below are three responses to our "Feel Good" Dialogue. I am so happy to see people responding. This indicates that this is an issue of concern for many Christian believers. I do not share these response e-mails to give myself a pat on the back - but to show that the word of God is spread in many ways, e-mail and social media being very powerful means of sharing His Word. I praise God that He chose me to do this ministry.
When we are willing to share His Word with those we meet, we never know how or when He will use us. Yesterday, I received a telephone call with a recorded message. The message claimed to be from my bank, and told me that there was a possibility that my ATM card had been compromised. The recording gave me telephone numbers I should call to clear up the problem. Because identity theft is so prevalent today, I will not do bank discussions via e-mail or telephone - so, I wrote the telephone numbers left by the message on a scratch pad, and went to my bank to discuss the situation.
To be economical, I use pre-used paper from my computer printer to make scratch pads. I had written the numbers down on a page of one of these scratch pads. As the bank representative was on the telephone with Bank Support, he began to look at the reverse side of my piece of note paper. I noticed him studying it very carefully and noticed that it was part of the Eschatology (End Time) Charts I had created in my study of Revelation. After we were through clearing up my problem, I mentioned to him that I noticed him studying the chart. I asked, "Are you a Christian?"
He told me that he was, so I gave him my ministry card and suggested he visit my web site (now it would be our Bill & Dory Gray Christian Ministries blog site) to see the full set of Eschatology Charts. God willing, he just might decide to join our network of Friends who receive our Friends Ministry e-Newsletters. Isn't it awesome that God will use a piece of scrap paper to unite two Christian brothers? Kind of reminds me of the fish symbol drawn in the dirt and used by Christians in the days of the apostles to identify a believer.
Back to the responses to my "Feel Good" blog, the four responses below come from people in very different situations. The first is from a very dear Friend, Minda, who is an active member of our local Filipino-American church in Corona. Minda and her family have been very close friends to Dory and me for a number of years, and God has used Minda greatly to influence our lives. I praise God for Sister Minda.
The second response comes from a relatively new Friend, but a very dear friend also. It is from Josie G., a young Filipina friend who just recently asked to be added to our prayer chain list. She has cancer - yet, she fully places her faith in our Lord Jesus Christ that His will be done in her life. Josie is truly an inspiration to both Dory and me. Please keep her in prayer. (Note update: Since her response 13 years ago, I must assume the this dear lady is now in the presence of her Lord).
The third response is from a Friend in Kenya, Pastor Fredrick Otieno Olali. Pastor Fredrick has the task of spreading the word of God to people who also have many other needs - health, food, and survival in general. Please keep Pastor Fredrick and his ministry in your prayers.
To answer Pastor Fredrick's question, the best way to contact Dr. Charles Stanley and Pastor Chuck Smith is via their web sites. Dr. Charles Stanley's radio/television ministry is called In Touch and Pastor Chuck Smith is senior pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and also has a radio ministry called The Word For Today. You can get more information of his ministry by visiting the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa church web site or by visiting the web site of KWVE Christian Radio.
To these Friends in particular, and to all my Friends - thank you for helping me share God's Word through my web site and e-mail ministry.
In the first response below, my Friend, Dan C., in the Philippines has called me to task on the message I wrote yesterday. That is good. Dan has given his reasons for disagreeing with me - yet, he has not said, "Take me off your mail list." That is a true Christian attitude and I admire Dan for his comments and his attitude. I pray that our dialogue will make you think, possibly answers a question or two that may have been on your mind, and even stir you up enough to make you want to respond. Jump right in; the water is fine.
Dan C. from the Philippines wrote on March 16, 2006: Re: BILL GRAY IS STILL ALIVE AND KICKING! ~ Mr. Bill Gray, I understand that you claim to be a Pastor or a man of God. If this is true, let me invite you to look at the mirror and ask yourself, "If I'm a man of God, why am I having a negative attitude toward Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller?"
I did face the mirror as soon as I read your e-mail where you talk about Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller. I asked myself in front of the mirror this question, "How come there are those who claim to be a Minister, like Bill Gray, and yet stand very negative toward fellow human beings?" In my mind I reflected that your very negative opinion against some people who are doing good, is a product of something else. It does not belong to God who created human beings in His own image. I don't know if you believe this doctrine of "Imago Dei."
I'm so sorry that I have to respond to your negative attitude towards people who I believe are doing an honorable job. The people who believe them and trust them, in my perspective are not all ignoramuses or "tanga" in Pilipino dialect. I believe these people are entitled to their choice and their decision about who to follow, in the same manner that you, Bill Gray, are entitled to your own negative opinion and perspective.
You are endorsing Calvary Chapel and that is okay. You are entitled to do that, but you must use your gift of discernment about whether you must give your negative attitude, or not, to people who are honestly seeking good advice. Be more pastoral, will you? Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise, Dan
I respond to Dan: Hi Dan, Thank you for your comments. First, I am not a pastor nor a minister; only a Christian to whom God has given the gift of writing and the desire to share His Word. Am I saying that Robert Schuller and Joel Osteen are not Christians? No. Do I have a personal negative attitude toward Joel Osteen or Robert Schuller? No.
However, I do have a very negative attitude toward the messages they teach. I believe they are delivering a watered down Gospel message, a message designed to make everyone feel comfortable (a "Feel Good" gospel) - not the full Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their gospel is not the true Gospel of the New Testament.
Jesus did not tell us in Matthew 20:19-20 to, "Go, Disciple, Baptize, Teach - and make everyone comfortable."
He told His disciples, and us, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20
In John 16:7-11 Jesus tells the disciples, and us, the role the Holy Spirit plays in our lives, from the Day of Pentecost 33 AD until the day we enter into eternity with Christ, "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."
That does not sound like Jesus was sending the Holy Spirit to make everyone feel comfortable. He was sending the Holy Spirit to convict those who are not believers - He was sending the Holy Spirit to convict all of us, even believers, that we are sinners - He was sending the Holy Spirit to make all of us fully aware of His righteousness and His judgment upon Satan, the ruler of this world, and His judgment upon all of Satan's followers. Who are Satan's followers? Everyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ and through grace, by faith, turn from the world and turn to Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Dan, I ask you - are the "feel good" pastors doing anyone a favor by shielding them from the full Gospel - just to make them feel more comfortable in church, in the hope that they will come to church again? People are not saved by going to church. People are saved when they are convicted of their sinful nature and turn to follow Jesus Christ. That could be in a church, in a barnyard, or just walking down the street. However, a person has a better chance of being saved if he is attending a church which is teaching the full Gospel.
That person has a better chance of salvation in a church that is telling people the truth - the truth that if you do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior - then your relationship is with Satan. And unless you change direction, you will spend eternity in hell. We owe it to everyone to tell this Gospel truth to them, to make sure that they truly know that they have only two choices: Eternity with Jesus Christ - or - eternity in hell with Satan.
Do I believe that man was created "imago Dei" - in the image of God? Absolutely. But, to keep everyone on a level playing field "imago Dei" is from Jerome's Latin Vulgate of 405 A.D. and is a Latin phrase meaning "image of God." Yes, Dan, Genesis 1:27 teaches us, "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God (imago Dei in Latin, tselem 'elohiym in Hebrew) created He him; male and female created He them." I believe what the Bible teaches us in Genesis, that God created man in His own image - and I praise God, that, in spite of my many failings, as a Christian believer I can claim that promise.
You mention that I push Calvary Chapel. Actually, I was saved in 1987 in a Filipino church - and I have attended Filipino churches since then. I have never attended Calvary Chapel. However, since shortly after becoming a believer, I have had my radio dial glued to KWVE Christian Radio, the radio teaching ministry of Calvary Chapel. I highly recommend KWVE (FM 107.9) in Southern California to everyone who wants to hear good, solid Biblical teaching.
There are great pastors and teachers on KWVE - and they have really helped me grow and mature in my knowledge of God's Word over the years. Do I agree with everything they teach? No, but that is not a problem. Those things where I might not agree with the Calvary Chapel pastors are not the doctrines which will determine our salvation. So I can agree to disagree (most of the time silently - well, at least part of the time) and still consider them strong Christian friends.
It was the Godly Christian love I found in a Filipino church in 1987 that kept me coming back to worship services and to Bible studies - until the Holy Spirit saved me. It was Godly love - not "feel good" sermons - which kept me in church until I learned enough about God's Word, His promise of salvation to all who will believe in the name of Jesus Christ - to know that I needed Him in my life. It was Godly love which kept me in fellowship until I was made to understand my need for Him. Did our pastor, Pastor Sam Lacanienta, deliver "feel good" messages? No way. He taught us the full Gospel and that we have only two choices: heaven or hell. Thanks to Pastor Sam I chose heaven.
I was using the comparison of Calvary Chapel - which began in 1965, the same year that Robert Schuller founded what became the Crystal Cathedral - to show the difference between a large church which grew numerically because they taught the full Gospel, and left the numerical growth to God (Calvary Chapel) - and - a church which grew large because their messages made people feel good and comfortable (Crystal Cathedral).
Why did I initiate this discussion about Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller? A Christian sister, Linda, sent me an e-mail asking my thoughts on Joel Osteen. And in Christian love, I had to give her an honest answer. I could have given her a "feel good" answer and said, "Oh, Joel is a really nice guy and he preaches to a lot of people, and he writes lots of books, etc." - but that was not the answer Linda was seeking. Linda was seeking a truthful answer regarding the messages given by Joel Osteen.
And to me they are messages of a watered down gospel, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the 1970s, I spent several periods of time in Robert Schuller's church. Once in 1970 for a year; again in 1977 for about six months. He can teach you how to make "lemonade" out of a lemon - but not once did I ever see him give an altar call. I never once heard Schuller teach about hell. I never heard Schuller teach that, unless you have a relationship with Jesus Christ, you will spend eternity in hell. Any pastor or preacher who does not teach these things - is teaching a watered down gospel.
Dan, I am truly sorry if my answers are not what you wanted to hear. I must speak what is in my heart, just as you have - and I pray that we can continue to do this, to sometimes agree to disagree, and still remain Friends and Christian brothers.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The following responses are from the other three Christian Friends mentioned earlier:
Minda from Corona wrote on March 17, 2006: Hi brother Bill and brother Dan, I read both your e-mails to each other. And in my opinion, as I have heard the preaching of Schuller and Osteen, both of them do not preach the salvation message (saving grace) of the Lord Jesus Christ, the conviction of the holy Spirit regarding sin. They only preach what the congregation wants to hear in order for them to feel good. It not a solid Christian foundation.
I don't belong to Calvary Chapel - but I like their teachings and preaching. It is Christ-centered, and all give praise to GOD. I always listen to this radio station of Calvary Chapel FM 107.9. I have learned a lot from their different speakers and I'm blessed. I read a verse in Proverbs that there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it will lead to death. For me, that's is Schuller's preaching. Keep up the good work, brothers Dan and Bill. The lord is using you both in your different callings for the furtherance of His kingdom. God Bless, Sister Minda
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Josie G. from Los Angeles wrote on March 17, 2006: Dearest Bill, Praise be to God! As always your e-mails teach and humble me. While I might not be too much of a 'high" technology person, I am always touched by the messages you send thru your e-mails (whenever i am able to open them, that is).
Truly God works in His time and I, more than anyone I guess, appreciate it more. I can relate to your feelings of gratitude and joy when your prayers are answered. I am in contact with Ate Dory every now and then for business transactions for Lilly. (Josie worked in Lilly's business office, even while undergoing treatment for cancer).
Ministries are not counted on how many attendees/participants there are, but on how the Word of God has been implanted and grown and practiced by a person (seeds that fall on different grounds)...did I get that right? So the importance is on the quality, rather than the number. You are a good sower and fisher of men. May your ministry grow in the solid foundation and strength of God's love and passion.
Best regards to ate Dory. Yours in Christ, Josie
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Pastor Fredrick Otieno Olali from Kenya wrote on March 17, 2006: I have read your letter and have been encouraged to preach the full Gospel, not the messages of pleasing people so as to attract big number in our churches.
I have heard (read) you talking about men of God who teach the true Gospel, such Charles Stanley, Chuck Smith, and others. Please give me the contact of these great men so that we will be communicating through e-mail, that I may also be a partner of the anointing in them. God bless you so much.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
To all my Friends, I pray that this trip back into my dialogue archive has been fruitful for you as it has me. If you have any thoughts to add to this dialogue from the past, I would love to hear from you.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
That is how we learn and grow more mature in God's Word, by walking and talking through Scripture, verse by verse. When discussing a Scripture passage or verse, we should strive to discover what the writer meant, what message God intended for us in that portion of Scripture. What did the writer mean in that verse? Why did he make that point? That is what makes fruitful Bible studies. And that is what makes fruitful e-mail ministries.
One of the blessings of having a Christian writing cyber-ministry is that it gives me an opportunity to communicate with people from all walks of life, of differing faith beliefs, and from many nations. The dialogue below is from 2006 and includes responses from a blog I wrote about "Feel Good and Prosperity, aka, Name It And Claim It" theology preachers:
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
From March 17, 2006:
Below are three responses to our "Feel Good" Dialogue. I am so happy to see people responding. This indicates that this is an issue of concern for many Christian believers. I do not share these response e-mails to give myself a pat on the back - but to show that the word of God is spread in many ways, e-mail and social media being very powerful means of sharing His Word. I praise God that He chose me to do this ministry.
When we are willing to share His Word with those we meet, we never know how or when He will use us. Yesterday, I received a telephone call with a recorded message. The message claimed to be from my bank, and told me that there was a possibility that my ATM card had been compromised. The recording gave me telephone numbers I should call to clear up the problem. Because identity theft is so prevalent today, I will not do bank discussions via e-mail or telephone - so, I wrote the telephone numbers left by the message on a scratch pad, and went to my bank to discuss the situation.
To be economical, I use pre-used paper from my computer printer to make scratch pads. I had written the numbers down on a page of one of these scratch pads. As the bank representative was on the telephone with Bank Support, he began to look at the reverse side of my piece of note paper. I noticed him studying it very carefully and noticed that it was part of the Eschatology (End Time) Charts I had created in my study of Revelation. After we were through clearing up my problem, I mentioned to him that I noticed him studying the chart. I asked, "Are you a Christian?"
He told me that he was, so I gave him my ministry card and suggested he visit my web site (now it would be our Bill & Dory Gray Christian Ministries blog site) to see the full set of Eschatology Charts. God willing, he just might decide to join our network of Friends who receive our Friends Ministry e-Newsletters. Isn't it awesome that God will use a piece of scrap paper to unite two Christian brothers? Kind of reminds me of the fish symbol drawn in the dirt and used by Christians in the days of the apostles to identify a believer.
Back to the responses to my "Feel Good" blog, the four responses below come from people in very different situations. The first is from a very dear Friend, Minda, who is an active member of our local Filipino-American church in Corona. Minda and her family have been very close friends to Dory and me for a number of years, and God has used Minda greatly to influence our lives. I praise God for Sister Minda.
The second response comes from a relatively new Friend, but a very dear friend also. It is from Josie G., a young Filipina friend who just recently asked to be added to our prayer chain list. She has cancer - yet, she fully places her faith in our Lord Jesus Christ that His will be done in her life. Josie is truly an inspiration to both Dory and me. Please keep her in prayer. (Note update: Since her response 13 years ago, I must assume the this dear lady is now in the presence of her Lord).
The third response is from a Friend in Kenya, Pastor Fredrick Otieno Olali. Pastor Fredrick has the task of spreading the word of God to people who also have many other needs - health, food, and survival in general. Please keep Pastor Fredrick and his ministry in your prayers.
To answer Pastor Fredrick's question, the best way to contact Dr. Charles Stanley and Pastor Chuck Smith is via their web sites. Dr. Charles Stanley's radio/television ministry is called In Touch and Pastor Chuck Smith is senior pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and also has a radio ministry called The Word For Today. You can get more information of his ministry by visiting the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa church web site or by visiting the web site of KWVE Christian Radio.
To these Friends in particular, and to all my Friends - thank you for helping me share God's Word through my web site and e-mail ministry.
In the first response below, my Friend, Dan C., in the Philippines has called me to task on the message I wrote yesterday. That is good. Dan has given his reasons for disagreeing with me - yet, he has not said, "Take me off your mail list." That is a true Christian attitude and I admire Dan for his comments and his attitude. I pray that our dialogue will make you think, possibly answers a question or two that may have been on your mind, and even stir you up enough to make you want to respond. Jump right in; the water is fine.
Dan C. from the Philippines wrote on March 16, 2006: Re: BILL GRAY IS STILL ALIVE AND KICKING! ~ Mr. Bill Gray, I understand that you claim to be a Pastor or a man of God. If this is true, let me invite you to look at the mirror and ask yourself, "If I'm a man of God, why am I having a negative attitude toward Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller?"
I did face the mirror as soon as I read your e-mail where you talk about Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller. I asked myself in front of the mirror this question, "How come there are those who claim to be a Minister, like Bill Gray, and yet stand very negative toward fellow human beings?" In my mind I reflected that your very negative opinion against some people who are doing good, is a product of something else. It does not belong to God who created human beings in His own image. I don't know if you believe this doctrine of "Imago Dei."
I'm so sorry that I have to respond to your negative attitude towards people who I believe are doing an honorable job. The people who believe them and trust them, in my perspective are not all ignoramuses or "tanga" in Pilipino dialect. I believe these people are entitled to their choice and their decision about who to follow, in the same manner that you, Bill Gray, are entitled to your own negative opinion and perspective.
You are endorsing Calvary Chapel and that is okay. You are entitled to do that, but you must use your gift of discernment about whether you must give your negative attitude, or not, to people who are honestly seeking good advice. Be more pastoral, will you? Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise, Dan
I respond to Dan: Hi Dan, Thank you for your comments. First, I am not a pastor nor a minister; only a Christian to whom God has given the gift of writing and the desire to share His Word. Am I saying that Robert Schuller and Joel Osteen are not Christians? No. Do I have a personal negative attitude toward Joel Osteen or Robert Schuller? No.
However, I do have a very negative attitude toward the messages they teach. I believe they are delivering a watered down Gospel message, a message designed to make everyone feel comfortable (a "Feel Good" gospel) - not the full Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their gospel is not the true Gospel of the New Testament.
Jesus did not tell us in Matthew 20:19-20 to, "Go, Disciple, Baptize, Teach - and make everyone comfortable."
He told His disciples, and us, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20
In John 16:7-11 Jesus tells the disciples, and us, the role the Holy Spirit plays in our lives, from the Day of Pentecost 33 AD until the day we enter into eternity with Christ, "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."
That does not sound like Jesus was sending the Holy Spirit to make everyone feel comfortable. He was sending the Holy Spirit to convict those who are not believers - He was sending the Holy Spirit to convict all of us, even believers, that we are sinners - He was sending the Holy Spirit to make all of us fully aware of His righteousness and His judgment upon Satan, the ruler of this world, and His judgment upon all of Satan's followers. Who are Satan's followers? Everyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ and through grace, by faith, turn from the world and turn to Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Dan, I ask you - are the "feel good" pastors doing anyone a favor by shielding them from the full Gospel - just to make them feel more comfortable in church, in the hope that they will come to church again? People are not saved by going to church. People are saved when they are convicted of their sinful nature and turn to follow Jesus Christ. That could be in a church, in a barnyard, or just walking down the street. However, a person has a better chance of being saved if he is attending a church which is teaching the full Gospel.
That person has a better chance of salvation in a church that is telling people the truth - the truth that if you do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior - then your relationship is with Satan. And unless you change direction, you will spend eternity in hell. We owe it to everyone to tell this Gospel truth to them, to make sure that they truly know that they have only two choices: Eternity with Jesus Christ - or - eternity in hell with Satan.
Do I believe that man was created "imago Dei" - in the image of God? Absolutely. But, to keep everyone on a level playing field "imago Dei" is from Jerome's Latin Vulgate of 405 A.D. and is a Latin phrase meaning "image of God." Yes, Dan, Genesis 1:27 teaches us, "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God (imago Dei in Latin, tselem 'elohiym in Hebrew) created He him; male and female created He them." I believe what the Bible teaches us in Genesis, that God created man in His own image - and I praise God, that, in spite of my many failings, as a Christian believer I can claim that promise.
You mention that I push Calvary Chapel. Actually, I was saved in 1987 in a Filipino church - and I have attended Filipino churches since then. I have never attended Calvary Chapel. However, since shortly after becoming a believer, I have had my radio dial glued to KWVE Christian Radio, the radio teaching ministry of Calvary Chapel. I highly recommend KWVE (FM 107.9) in Southern California to everyone who wants to hear good, solid Biblical teaching.
There are great pastors and teachers on KWVE - and they have really helped me grow and mature in my knowledge of God's Word over the years. Do I agree with everything they teach? No, but that is not a problem. Those things where I might not agree with the Calvary Chapel pastors are not the doctrines which will determine our salvation. So I can agree to disagree (most of the time silently - well, at least part of the time) and still consider them strong Christian friends.
It was the Godly Christian love I found in a Filipino church in 1987 that kept me coming back to worship services and to Bible studies - until the Holy Spirit saved me. It was Godly love - not "feel good" sermons - which kept me in church until I learned enough about God's Word, His promise of salvation to all who will believe in the name of Jesus Christ - to know that I needed Him in my life. It was Godly love which kept me in fellowship until I was made to understand my need for Him. Did our pastor, Pastor Sam Lacanienta, deliver "feel good" messages? No way. He taught us the full Gospel and that we have only two choices: heaven or hell. Thanks to Pastor Sam I chose heaven.
I was using the comparison of Calvary Chapel - which began in 1965, the same year that Robert Schuller founded what became the Crystal Cathedral - to show the difference between a large church which grew numerically because they taught the full Gospel, and left the numerical growth to God (Calvary Chapel) - and - a church which grew large because their messages made people feel good and comfortable (Crystal Cathedral).
Why did I initiate this discussion about Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller? A Christian sister, Linda, sent me an e-mail asking my thoughts on Joel Osteen. And in Christian love, I had to give her an honest answer. I could have given her a "feel good" answer and said, "Oh, Joel is a really nice guy and he preaches to a lot of people, and he writes lots of books, etc." - but that was not the answer Linda was seeking. Linda was seeking a truthful answer regarding the messages given by Joel Osteen.
And to me they are messages of a watered down gospel, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the 1970s, I spent several periods of time in Robert Schuller's church. Once in 1970 for a year; again in 1977 for about six months. He can teach you how to make "lemonade" out of a lemon - but not once did I ever see him give an altar call. I never once heard Schuller teach about hell. I never heard Schuller teach that, unless you have a relationship with Jesus Christ, you will spend eternity in hell. Any pastor or preacher who does not teach these things - is teaching a watered down gospel.
Dan, I am truly sorry if my answers are not what you wanted to hear. I must speak what is in my heart, just as you have - and I pray that we can continue to do this, to sometimes agree to disagree, and still remain Friends and Christian brothers.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The following responses are from the other three Christian Friends mentioned earlier:
Minda from Corona wrote on March 17, 2006: Hi brother Bill and brother Dan, I read both your e-mails to each other. And in my opinion, as I have heard the preaching of Schuller and Osteen, both of them do not preach the salvation message (saving grace) of the Lord Jesus Christ, the conviction of the holy Spirit regarding sin. They only preach what the congregation wants to hear in order for them to feel good. It not a solid Christian foundation.
I don't belong to Calvary Chapel - but I like their teachings and preaching. It is Christ-centered, and all give praise to GOD. I always listen to this radio station of Calvary Chapel FM 107.9. I have learned a lot from their different speakers and I'm blessed. I read a verse in Proverbs that there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it will lead to death. For me, that's is Schuller's preaching. Keep up the good work, brothers Dan and Bill. The lord is using you both in your different callings for the furtherance of His kingdom. God Bless, Sister Minda
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Josie G. from Los Angeles wrote on March 17, 2006: Dearest Bill, Praise be to God! As always your e-mails teach and humble me. While I might not be too much of a 'high" technology person, I am always touched by the messages you send thru your e-mails (whenever i am able to open them, that is).
Truly God works in His time and I, more than anyone I guess, appreciate it more. I can relate to your feelings of gratitude and joy when your prayers are answered. I am in contact with Ate Dory every now and then for business transactions for Lilly. (Josie worked in Lilly's business office, even while undergoing treatment for cancer).
Ministries are not counted on how many attendees/participants there are, but on how the Word of God has been implanted and grown and practiced by a person (seeds that fall on different grounds)...did I get that right? So the importance is on the quality, rather than the number. You are a good sower and fisher of men. May your ministry grow in the solid foundation and strength of God's love and passion.
Best regards to ate Dory. Yours in Christ, Josie
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Pastor Fredrick Otieno Olali from Kenya wrote on March 17, 2006: I have read your letter and have been encouraged to preach the full Gospel, not the messages of pleasing people so as to attract big number in our churches.
I have heard (read) you talking about men of God who teach the true Gospel, such Charles Stanley, Chuck Smith, and others. Please give me the contact of these great men so that we will be communicating through e-mail, that I may also be a partner of the anointing in them. God bless you so much.
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To all my Friends, I pray that this trip back into my dialogue archive has been fruitful for you as it has me. If you have any thoughts to add to this dialogue from the past, I would love to hear from you.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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