RECENTLY I SAW A GRAPHIC ON FACEBOOK WHICH I FELT WENT A BIT TOO FAR, even for the Reform / Calvinist theology camp ~ And I felt that I had to address the quote shown in the graphic which was attributed to Dr. Joel Beeke, President of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Being of
Reformed Theology, according to their web site, he and the
school advocates the teaching of Doctrines of Grace, which is
merely a euphemism for the Calvinist TULIP Theology.
In the quote attributed to him, Dr. Beeke tells us that the New
Testament does NOT teach that Christ died for our sins.
And, as I read the quote, Dr. Beeke denies that the New
Testament teaches that Christ will save ALL who, by grace
through faith, believe and receive Him (Ephesians 2:8, John
1;12, John 3:16).
And the quote tells us, "Rather, (it is) biblical evangelism
(which) declares that Christ died for sinners and promises to
save all who believe in Him." In other words, as I read
his quote, the New Testament does not tell us that Christ died
to save all who will believe. Instead it was evangelists, i.e.,
men, Bible scholars, theologians, pastors, who gave that
understanding to us, aside from the New Testament.
To me, that teaching denies the full meaning of John 19:30, "It
is finished!" - meaning that, through His death on the
cross, Christ declares that He has finished all that
is necessary to provide eternal life to everyone who will
believe and receive His free gift of life.
Yet Reform / Calvinist theology denies that His "It is
finished!" was intended to offer eternal life for all who
will believe. They teach that the promise of this verse is only
intended for the Pre-Creation Elect.
They also change the meaning of John 3:16, "For God so loved
the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
To them, WORLD does not mean WORLD - it really means only the
Pre-Creation Elect.
What is the difference between Reform / Calvinist changing the
meaning of WORLD in John 3:16 - and the Jehovah's Witnesses
adding the article "a" in John 1:1?
My Bible reads: John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The JWs New World Translation Bible changes that to read: John
1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was A god."
Both the JWs and the Reform / Calvinist are changing the meaning
of the Bible - to fit their man-made beliefs into the Bible.
That is called Eisegesis - the process of interpreting text in
such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas,
or biases into Scripture. It is commonly referred to as reading
into the text of the Bible.
Eisegesis is reading INTO the Bible - what man want it to say.
Exegesis is reading FROM the Bible - what God intended it to
say.
Let me close by saying that this is NOT meant to be an attack
against my Reform / Calvinist or Jehovah's Witnesses Friends.
It is just that I could not look the other way when I feel that
the meaning of this graphic is so wrong. God bless, Bill
And to my delight, after I posted my thoughts above, which I
have edited and tried to enhance - a long time, very dear Friend
and Christian brother, Mark, whom I highly respect, responded to
my post:
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
MARK: I personally don't think this comment from Beeke
was very helpful either.
(But) I believe (your) comparing JWs to Calvinists was quite the
straw-man setup for your argument. When Christ said, "It is
finished!" He was clearly saying to the Father that He
completed His Father's will to die for sinners who will repent.
A sinner who does not repent is a lost soul.
If Jesus died for ALL as you define in (the word) "WORLD" in
John 3:16. . . Then why are there unrepentant sinners in
Hell? Is Christ's work on the cross not sufficient for ALL
sins? By that, (the) very nature of this theology - breeds
universalism, meaning everyone, ALL, WHOLE WORLD, should
be saved and in Heaven. But you and I both know Hell exists and
there are sinners there.
To make it simple, how would you exegete Scripture such as John
15:16, "You did not choose Me but I chose you . . ."
Or John 6:44, "No man can come to Me unless the Father who
sent Me draws him . . ."
Or Ephesians, 1:4 "just as He chose us in Him before the
foundation of the world . . ."
Or the Golden Chain of Redemption, aka, Romans 8:28-30,
"He foreknew . . .
predestined . . . called
. . .
justified . . .
glorified."
Ultimately, everything (especially salvation) boils down to the
understanding of our place before a sovereign God -
understanding God's sovereignty and holiness. Does God in all
His sovereignty have to wait for the sinner's decision to make
His work on the cross efficacious? So much for His sovereignty
then, right? In the words of Paul, "May it never be!"
Romans 9:13-16 (esv), "As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Romans 9:17-19 (esv),"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'
Romans 9:20-21 (esv), "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Romans 9:22-24 (esv), "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
BILL GRAY: Hi Mark, You reply, "When Christ said, "It is finished!" He was clearly saying to the Father that He completed His Father's will to die for sinners who will repent." I believe we are both saying the same thing. But I will clarify and say that it is my view that He was telling the Father AND all mankind that He has finished His work of making atonement available. Now is up to the individual to believe and receive the free gift He has purchased with His blood.
You say, "If Jesus died for ALL as you define in (the word) "WORLD" in John 3:16. . . Then why are there unrepentant sinners in Hell?" His work finished all that is necessary for atonement. But it is up to each individual to receive it. Those who do, have eternal life. Those who do not, have chosen eternal damnation upon themselves.
Mark, you ask, "Does God in all His sovereignty have to wait for the sinner's decision to make His work on the cross efficacious?"
As we know, God does not have to wait for anyone to do anything. Why? Because in His omniscience He knows everything you and I will do. He knew the exact moment we were conceived in our mother's womb - and He knows the exact moment you and I will leave this world - and He knows our every thought in between those two moments. So, no, God is not and does not have to wait - for He knows us in every way.
Then you ask, "Is Christ's work on the cross not sufficient for ALL sins?"
Yes, without question Christ's work on the cross assures full forgiveness for all sins - past, present, future. But to receive that Justification, one has to believe and receive His full forgiveness by receiving Christ as personal Lord and Savior.
You tell me, "By that, (the) very nature of this theology breeds universalism, meaning everyone, ALL, (the) WHOLE WORLD, should be saved and in Heaven. But you and I both know Hell exists and there are sinners there."
Yes, the existence of hell is verified by Christ Himself - in Matthew 25:41 and in Luke 16:19-31. In Matthew we read that hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels. And in Luke 19-31, we learn that today all sinners are in Hades/Torment, the precursor to hell - eternal hell, which is designated for all mankind who will not believe. Revelation 20:11-15 confirms Hell, the Lake of Fire, to be the final and eternal abode for Satan, his Antichrist and Prophet, all fallen angels - and all mankind who have or will reject Christ as Lord and Savior.
On the other hand, Universalism theology teaches that ALL people, regardless of their lives or Free Will choices - will eventually go to heaven. That is not what Christ meant when He declared, "It is finished!" The Bible is clear: Receive Christ, Receive eternal life - Reject Christ, Receive eternal damnation.
The Universalist Unitarian Church of Riverside, and all other Universalist Unitarian churches, teach a Universalist theology and they invite folks of all beliefs to worship their gods together in their sanctuary, side by side, regardless of their beliefs - from Buddhism to Atheism and everything in between - sitting alongside Christians in worship. But, what or who is there to worship if not God?
Next, Mark, you ask about specific Bible verses:
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you. . ."
That is a verse which demands an explanation and which many, clergy and lay teachers, hesitate to address. So I will let a man far superior to me in Biblical knowledge respond:
Henry Allen Ironside was a Canadian-American Bible teacher, preacher, theologian, pastor, and author who pastored Moody Church in Chicago from 1929 to 1948. Ironside was one of the most prolific Christian writers of the 20th Century and published more than 100 books, booklets, and pamphlets - a number of which are still in print. One editorial reviewer wrote of a 2005 re-publication that, "Ironside's commentaries are a standard and have stood the test of time."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
H. A. Ironside Commentary on the Book of John:
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/isn/john.html
Bill Gray Note: I am happy to confirm that I have this commentary in my personal library, and I treasure it. However, I go to the web site above which I have archived to copy/paste so that I do not make any typo errors when quoting from his book.
Ironside's notes on John 15:16:
But there is something here in verse 16 (which) I must not pass over. What does He say? “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Did not they choose Him? Did not you choose Christ? Yes, but not before He chose you.
Long before my heart was inclined to come to Christ, He touched me by the blessed Holy Spirit. At last when I was utterly broken down and brought to repentance, and cried to Him in shame, “Save, Lord, or I perish,” He took me in and made me His own.
And then when it is a question of service, it is He who chooses (us) for this or that special work. And it is He who selects our sphere of ministry, whether at home or abroad. You remember the man who wanted to follow the Master, and the Lord said, “[No], go home…, and [show] how great things the Lord hath done for thee” (Mark 5:19). We can glorify Christ in whatever place we may be and we must recognize that He chose that task for us. “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you.”
Many people are troubled about ordination. Folks ask, “Has anyone a right to preach who has not been ordained?” In this Book (the Bible) you do not read of people being ordained to preach the Gospel. You never get the word ordination connected with the actual setting apart of a man to preach the Gospel. What about Timothy? The word ordained was not used in Timothy's case. “Well,” you say, “did you forget about Paul and Barnabas?” No, but they had been preaching a long time in Antioch before the elders laid their hands on them. Nobody authorized them by any service of ordination to go out and preach. That is the Lord’s prerogative. He said, “I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.” The word ordained means “set apart.” (In other words) “I have chosen you.”
That is the ordination that counts. All that the elders or others can do is to recognize what God has done already. The Lord said in regard to Paul, when he was still Saul of Tarsus, “He is a chosen vessel unto me, to [bring] my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15).
And to Paul himself He said, “I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee” (Acts 26:16). It is the Lord Himself who makes ministers, who gives men first to know Christ as their own Savior, and then sends them forth to preach. “I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you” (John 15:16).
Mark, I believe that explanation also answers your questions re: John 6:44 and Ephesians 1:4. Yes, He chose us - but for what? Salvation or ministry?
You move on to Romans 8, "Or the Golden Chain of Redemption, aka, Romans 8:28-30, 'He foreknew... predestined... called... justified... glorified.' "
That one I can address. God is omniscient, therefor He knows all things about you and me - from the moment of our conception to the moment that, through death or rapture, we leave this world. Nothing we can or will do - can surprise God. "Oops," is not in God's vocabulary.
Therefore, He foreknew us in all ways, meaning the He knows who will receive Christ and who will reject Him. All are predestined: believers to eternal life, non-believers to eternal hell.
Did He call us? Yes, that is the Holy Spirit leading all who will receive Him to the foot of the cross. He has justified those who will believe, He is sanctifying all who do believe, and He will glorify all who leave this world believing in Jesus Christ.
Now, commenting on your photo of Charles Spurgeon and his quote: "Calvinism means the placing of the eternal God at the head of all things." Amen to that. However, that not only applies to Calvinism - but to Arminianism, Free Grace, and all other theologies which teach people the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Regardless of one's theology - God must be first or there is a problem in that person's Christian faith.
Mark, thank you for making me stretch to respond to your comments. Your comments and thoughts expressed indeed do create one of my favorite times - an ongoing conversational Bible Study. Thank you, my Christian brother and God bless, Bill
BILL GRAY: My bad, I forgot to respond to one very important comment from you: "(But) I believe (your) comparing JWs to Calvinists was quite the straw-man setup for your argument."
I agree with you completely that those two theologies are totally apples and oranges. Calvinist are absolutely Christian believers and brethren, while unfortunately, JWs have completely lost the true Jesus Christ.
In my comments above I was only comparing the actions of both Calvinist and JWs in misreading or changing Scripture verses / passages to read INTO Scripture each one's predetermined theology - instead of reading FROM Scripture God's intended truth.
No comparison between my brethren in Calvinism and my Friends in the JWs' camp intended. God bless, Bill
MARK MASAKAYAN: Bill, just one correction I'd like to address in your response. You said, ". . . from the moment of our conception to the moment that, through death or rapture, we leave this world."
Do you mean God's conception of us, or our conception in the womb? I think you know where I'm going with this. God is timeless. He knows all irrespective of time.
BILL GRAY: Maybe your question should be the difference between "creation" and "conception." In Genesis 1:1 we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Then in Genesis 1:27-28, we read, "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; . . .' "
God created man as male and female so that they might be able to "conceive" and through that conception - create a new human being, a child. God created mankind - and then gave mankind the ability and means to conceive new humans as babies.
MARK MASAKAYAN: Please don't be offended, but from your response, there are so many signs that you are a closet Calvinist! Just come out already and relinquish every bit of self to enjoy the fulness of His sovereignty.
Bill Gray Note: My dear Christian brother has a great sense of humor! But if you look at my graphic composite below, you will see that, at best, I could only be a 1-point Calvinist and, unfortunately, a 4-point Arminian. However my main disagreement with both precludes me joining either camp. I could never agree with the Calvinist version of Predestination - and I could never agree with the Arminians that a true believer can lose his/her salvation. My compass points in only one direction, that I am an Exegetical Biblicist, one whose sole authority and truth come from reading FROM the Bible.
Like I said in the past, I believe you are saved. I have seen your fruits, Bill. And me, oh my, the things God has used (them) for - a blessing to believers indeed.
But you weren't saved because you told God, "Save me." You were saved because God (has) thought of you since eternity past and said that Bill is mine, and a vessel of righteousness unto my glory alone. God makes the first move and we cannot tell Him no once we've been regenerated. We have no more sovereignty over God saving us than Paul did on the Damascus road.
BILL GRAY: Let's kind of walk through your last thoughts.
1. But you weren't saved because you told God, "Save me." ~ That is so true. I was saved because I heard the Gospel (work of the Holy Spirit) and believed (Ephesians 1:13). From that I was sealed, i.e, indwelled by the Holy Spirit until I die or I am raptured (Ephesians 4:30).
Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"
God's grace is a gift which allows us to be saved. At that moment we do not become robots, performing by rote. By grace God has made it possible for us to be saved through faith. But because we are not robots, God has given us the gift of Free Will. And using that God-given gift of Free Will - we MUST make a decision: Eternal life in Christ - OR - Eternal destruction without Christ.
Mark, you and I chose eternal life in Christ. Sadly many have and will continue to reject Christ and choose eternal condemnation separated from God.
2. You were saved because God (has) thought of you since eternity past ~ One slight correction: God has given us everything we need to believe and be saved. But the final decision has to be upon our shoulders. Otherwise we would not be people loving God, we would be robots mandated to love God.
3. God (has) thought of you since eternity past and said that Bill is mine, and a vessel of righteousness unto my glory alone ~ Yes, the omniscient God knew me and loved me from eternity past - and He will love me into eternity future. But because He wants us to sincerely love and want Him - He gave us the gift of Free Will so that me might, of our own choice, choose to love and follow Him.
4. God makes the first move and we cannot tell Him no once we've been regenerated ~ Read your statement closely - and you will see that we agree with one another. Yes, God makes the first move. That is why He sent His Son to die on the cross, to offer us the gift of eternal life. But we have to accept His gift. Once again, you are right on target, that we cannot say no to Him, nor leave Him, once we receive and accept His gift of eternal life. The moment we become His adopted child, no one can snatch us out of His hands, nor can we walk away from Him (John 10:27-29)
5. We have no more sovereignty over God saving us than Paul did on the Damascus road ~ On the road to Damascus, God called Paul, but Paul had to believe and receive his calling to preach the Gospel. This is from H.A. Ironside's Commentary on the book of John shown above:
He said, “I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.” The word ordained means “set apart.” (In other words) “I have chosen you.”
That is the ordination that counts. All that the elders or others can do is to recognize what God has done already. The Lord said in regard to Paul, when he was still Saul of Tarsus, “He is a chosen vessel unto me, to [bring] my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15).
And to Paul himself He said, “I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee” (Acts 26:16). It is the Lord Himself who makes ministers, who gives men first to know Christ as their own Savior, and then sends them forth to preach. “I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you” (John 15:16).
John 15:16 (kjv), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:. . ."
To my very special Christian brother, Mark, I pray you will harvest some portion of what I have personally learned in compiling this exciting dialogue. No Bible study has challenged me more, and that is why it has taken me days to compose this dialogue blog. Thank you, my Friend, for forcing me to stretch my thinking and understanding of the various theologies.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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