Free Will Is A Gift From God - Yes Or No?

One of the main questions which stands between believers of the Calvinist theology, the Arminian theology, and we who stand somewhere in the middle is:  "Did God create man with the gift of Free Will?" 

And that question can be narrowed even further to:  "Does man have the Free Will to choose to follow Christ as Lord and Savior - or - to deny Christ as his Lord and Savior?  Does man have the Free Will to choose eternal life in Christ - or - to choose eternal condemnation absent from Christ?"

Calvinist say, NO, man does not have the gift of Free Will to choose salvation or condemnation.  They teach that only the pre-Creation Elect will spend eternity in Christ.  All others, the Reprobate, will not have a choice, they will spend eternity in hell. 

My thoughts: God created man.  God could have created ONLY the Calvinist Elect - but He did not.  Why would the God of perfect Love and perfect Justice - create billions of people, the Reprobate, for the sole purpose of sending them to eternal hell?  Biblically that does not make sense.

Arminians say, YES, God did give man the gift of Free Will.  Each individual has the Free Will to choose to follow Christ or to deny Christ.  But the fallacy for me in the Arminian theology is their teaching of a Conditional Salvation, that a true believer, once indwelled by the Holy Spirit - can lose his/her salvation.  That is proven wrong in the Bible.

My thoughts:  Multiple Scripture verses prove that teaching to be false:

Has eternal life:  John 3:16, John 6:47, John 10:28

No One Can Snatch them out of My hands:  John 10:28-29,

A child of God:  John 1:12, 1 John 3:1-2

Adopted into His family: Ephesians 1:5-6, Galatians 4:5

Whoever believes in Him shall NOT perish but have everlasting life:  John 3:16

He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life"  John 5:24

Now back to the reason for this blog:  The discussion of Free Will - Yes or No?

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BILL GRAY on May 24, 2021, posted a blog which began with this excerpt:

RECENTLY  I SAW A GRAPHIC ON FACEBOOK WHICH I FELT WENT A BIT TOO FAR, even for the Reform / Calvinist theology camp  ~  And I felt that I had to address the quote shown in the graphic which was attributed to Dr. Joel Beeke, President of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Being of Reformed Theology, according to the seminary's web site, he and that seminary advocate the teaching of Doctrines of Grace, which is merely a euphemism for the Calvinist TULIP Theology. .  .  .

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And that led into a challenging dialogue primarily dealing with God's gift of Free Will to man:   Yeah or Nay?

MARK MASAKAYAN:  Bill, definitely one of my favorite conversations with you!  And as always, I applaud your editorial work and inclusion of the ENTIRE conversation.  (Yet) I still cling to the fact that Calvinism (though it is more Biblical than other theology) DOES NOT SAVE.  ONLY CHRIST SAVES.  Only God is sovereign in His infinite wisdom as opposed to the arrogance of man's theological views.

And it is through God's sovereignty that I can rest my wicked and puny head with a peace that passes all understanding - knowing that I never have sovereignty over God, especially in salvation.  Just like the Israelites in Ezekiel 36-37, their hearts of stone were actively turned by God into hearts of flesh.  God showed His complete sovereignty over their wills and "caused them to walk in His statutes." .  .  .

Bill Gray Note:  Mark, as I understand your comment above, you see Ezekiel 36-37 as God bringing the Israelites back into fellowship with Him (hearts of stone turned into hearts of flesh) - which I believe will happen one day for a Remnant of Israel.  For me a key verse is Ezekiel 37:21 where God is promising to bring Israel out of the nations where they have been scattered - and make them a nation once again - which happened in 1948.  

But Israel, as a nation, is not yet spiritually in step with God and Jesus Christ.  I see verse 21 as the beginning of the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 - but that restoration will not be complete until Christ establishes His Millennial Kingdom and brings the remnant of Israel out of the Tribulation and into His Millennial Kingdom.  I see the prophecy of an everlasting, eternal, covenant of peace with Israel in verse 26.

The Bible's message is quite clear on salvation.  It's not pray a prayer.  It's not make a commitment.  It's not based upon our human decision.  It's not living a moral life.  It's not baptism.  It's not serving or giving to the church.  It's not founded on the will of man but rather the WILL OF GOD.  It's a repeated phrase and theme scattered throughout the 66 inspired books called the Bible.  Repent and believe.  In His love, Mark

HENRY YAO:   Mark Masakayan, Salvation is based upon the decision to believe in Jesus.

MARK MASAKAYAN:  Henry, so God cannot save a person until they make the decision to allow Christ into their heart?  That is already presupposing we have the innate ability on our own to recognize our need of Christ?

HENRY YAO:  Mark Masakayan, Man was created with free will.  People make choices.  God already finished the work of salvation so all may be saved. But it needs faith in Jesus for that salvation to be effective for the specific individual.

Bill Gray Note:  Just to be clear:   Christ's death on the cross made salvation available to all people (John 19:30).  Christ on the cross provided the opportunity for all people (the world, John 3:16) to believe and receive eternal life.  But it is up to each individual to receive His gift of eternal life.  Like any gift, if we do not receive it, we do not benefit from it. 

Bill Gates could walk up to a homeless man and offer him a check for one billion dollars - which would provide well for that man.  But if he will not receive that check - he is still just a homeless man living on the street among all the squalor.  The same is true of Christ's offer of eternal life to a lost soul.

Simplification:  His death made salvation available to all who will believe.  His resurrection assured that ALL people WILL also resurrect into eternal life ~ Believers to eternal joy in heaven, Non-believers to eternal condemnation in hell.  An individual choice!

MARK MASAKAYAN:  Henry, where in the Bible does it say "man was created with free will"?  Particularly in salvation.  It is ONLY by HIS will that we are saved.

Ephesians 1:4-5, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love, but predestining us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."

Romans 9:15-16, "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'"  So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Romans 9:19-23 (nkjv), "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?'  (20) But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?'  (21) Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?  (22) What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory."

Bill Gray Note:  Yes, Romans 9:21 tells us, "God, the divine potter, has the omnipotent power to 'from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor.'"  But my question is:  Would a God of infinite Love, infinite Justice, infinite Mercy, infinite Grace actually choose to create a vessel, i.e., a man, solely for the purpose of condemning him to eternal suffering in hell?

Mark, you had quoted from the new Legacy Standard Bible, but I switched to the New King James Version instead of the LSB you quoted, for the LSB is new and some folks might not be familiar with it.  I compared them and found the only difference I could see in that Romans passage was the word "longsuffering" in the NKJV - and "patience" in the LSB.

HENRY YAO:  You left out Ephesians chapter 2.  You know the verse.

Bill Gray Note:  Henry I believe you are referring to Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."  

The difference being that Calvinist interpret that passage as saying that the gift of god is "grace" - where we who are not Calvinist believe it is telling us that "by the Grace of God through faith alone, we have been saved." 

We read it as saying that the gift is "salvation for all who will believe" and not just the gift of "grace."  Yes, these appear to be the same, but the first is saying that man has the gift of Free Will to believe and receive that salvation.  Reading it as the grace of God which was bestowed upon those chosen to be the Elect before the Creation, takes away man's choice to believe through faith alone - making man's salvation a robotic action.

For me, anyone who reads it as saying "by grace you have been saved through faith" can only interpret that as saying that "the opportunity to believe and have salvation" is by the grace of God. And with that I agree completely.

BILL GRAY:  Hi Mark and Henry, I would like to jump in at this point, for you have touched on a subject near and dear to my heart:  God's gift of Free Will to all mankind.

Mark asks, "Henry, where in the Bible does it say "man was created with free will"?  Particularly in salvation.  It is ONLY by HIS will that we are saved."

I believe that is the heart of this entire dialogue:  Free Will or No Free Will - as defined in the Bible.  So let's explore the Bible for the gift of Free Will:

We will start in Genesis.  God created Adam and Eve in His own image, i.e., He created them to be triune beings:  body, soul, spirit - just as He is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.  They were not created as deity, for only God, the Trinity, is deity.   God gave them great intelligence, obvious in that Adam named all the animals.  And God obviously gave them the gift of Free Will - for when tempted, they did choose to disobey God. 

The result of their disobedience was (1) spiritual death, i.e, their spiritual link with God was broken, (2) the process of physical death was begun, (3) they were evicted from the perfect Garden of Eden and made to suffer hardships which they did not have before the disobedience, and (4) their descendants, starting with Cain and Abel, were born with the curse of an innate sin nature.   That curse has carried down to all mankind.

Man cannot change the physical death, nor the innate sin nature - but man can restore his spiritual connection with God.  Yet, the only way that man can restore his spiritual connection with God is by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ.  And that is done through the gift of Free Wil which God gave to Adam and Eve - and which has been our perpetual gift and blessing since Adam.  You will see nothing in the Bible that tells us Adam lost the gift of Free Will. 

How about Abraham?  Did he have Free Will?  I would say he did for several reasons:

Hebrews 11:8, "By faith Abraham obeyed" - he left his homeland and wandered into unknown countries - only in faith that God had something better for him.

Hebrews 11:7, "By faith Noah.  .  .  prepared an ark" - to survive the flood, despite the fact that there had never been a flood nor rain before.  He trusted God to provide the water for the flood.

And the greatest leap of faith in the Old Testament was in Hebrews 11:17, "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac.  .  ."   Abraham and Sarah had believed God would provide a son, even though Abraham was 100 and Sarah 90 years old when they finally had Isaac.  Then God told Abraham to build an altar and sacrifice his only son, Isaac. 

Genesis 22:1-2 (nkjv), "Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, 'Abraham!'  And he said, 'Here I am.'  Then He said, 'Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.'"

Could Abraham have refused to follow God's instructions?  YES, for in Genesis 22:1 we read, "God tested Abraham."  If Abraham did not have the gift of Free Will to refuse - then this would not have been a test of his obedience. 

During the Exodus, through Moses God gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments and the Law.  We all know the Ten Commandments, but do you know the reason for, and the extent of, the Law?  The Ten Commandments is like our Constitution, giving a broad outline of the Founder/founders' intent. 

The Ten Commandments give us the big picture guiding God's people.  The Constitution gives us the big picture governing America.  Then we have thousands of statutes and laws further expanding upon our legal rights and obligations, derived from our Constitution.  In the Law, God gave the Israelites over 600 detailed laws and statutes to further explain His intent in the Ten Commandments.

In Exodus we see the Ten Commandments.  in Deuteronomy we find the over 600 statutes making up the Law.

In Deuteronomy 30:19 God tells Israel, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;"  God is giving the Israelites a choice:  Follow My Laws and live.  Disobey my Laws and die.  That clearly shows that God gave the Israelites the gift of Free Will.
 
In Ezekiel 18 the prophet Ezekiel is explaining the justice of a righteous God.  In chapter 18:21-22 we read, "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. . .  (22) None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live."   Ezekiel is surely telling the people of Israel that God gives them a choice:  Follow His laws and statutes and live.  Disobey His laws and statutes and die.  That clearly shows that God gave the Israelites the gift of Free Will.

Ezekiel 18:5, 9, 21 (esv), "If a man is righteous and does what is just and right - walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully - he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.  But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die."   God gave the Israelites the gift of Free Will.

Now Let's Look In The New Testament:

John 3:14, 12:32, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, .  .  . And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to Myself."  Not just the pre-Creation Elect, but all peoples.

1 Timothy 2:3-4, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."   God desires that ALL men be saved, but He does not force them - for we know from Matthew 7:13-14 that many will choose to disobey God.

Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.  Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."   Obviously describing a Free Will choice.

Matthew 13:49, "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just."

Matthew 25:31-33, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  (32)  ALL the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  (33) And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left."

Notice that Christ separates the wicked from the just in Matthew 13:49 - and the sheep (believers) from the goats (non-believers) in Matthew 25:31-33.  There is no mention anywhere in the Bible of separating the Elect from the Reprobate.

Based upon the Scriptures shared above, I can find no Scriptural support which would cause me to believe in the Calvinist Predestination teaching, that before the Creation God Elected some to eternal life and many others, the Reprobates, to eternal condemnation - nor can I accept the Arminian Conditional Salvation, i.e., that a believer indwelled by the Holy Spirit can lose salvation.  Therefore I have to stand with an Exegetical reading FROM the Bible, etc, an Exegetical Biblicist theology.

I pray that this blog has been a fruitful read for you, as it has been extremely fruitful to my knowledge of God's Word in writing it.  I realize that it is a rather long read - but prayerfully some will have the desire and time to read through it  - and just as prayerfully that others will find a few Golden Nuggets which will enhance your understanding of God's Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill 

Click on the image to enlarge: 

Bible Study Dialogue With My Faithful Christian Brother, Mark

RECENTLY  I SAW A GRAPHIC ON FACEBOOK WHICH I FELT WENT A BIT TOO FAR, even for the Reform / Calvinist theology camp  ~  And I felt that I had to address the quote shown in the graphic which was attributed to Dr. Joel Beeke, President of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.  

Being of Reformed Theology, according to their web site, he and the school advocates the teaching of Doctrines of Grace, which is merely a euphemism for the Calvinist TULIP Theology.

In the quote attributed to him, Dr. Beeke tells us that the New Testament does NOT teach that Christ died for our sins.  And, as I read the quote, Dr. Beeke denies that the New Testament teaches that Christ will save ALL who, by grace through faith, believe and receive Him (Ephesians 2:8, John 1;12, John 3:16). 

And the quote tells us, "Rather, (it is) biblical evangelism (which) declares that Christ died for sinners and promises to save all who believe in Him."  In other words, as I read his quote, the New Testament does not tell us that Christ died to save all who will believe.  Instead it was evangelists, i.e., men, Bible scholars, theologians, pastors, who gave that understanding to us, aside from the New Testament.

To me, that teaching denies the full meaning of John 19:30, "It is finished!" - meaning that, through His death on the cross, Christ declares that He has finished all that is necessary to provide eternal life to everyone who will believe and receive His free gift of life.

Yet Reform / Calvinist theology denies that His "It is finished!" was intended to offer eternal life for all who will believe.  They teach that the promise of this verse is only intended for the Pre-Creation Elect.

They also change the meaning of John 3:16, "For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."  To them, WORLD does not mean WORLD - it really means only the Pre-Creation Elect.

What is the difference between Reform / Calvinist changing the meaning of WORLD in John 3:16 - and the Jehovah's Witnesses adding the article "a" in John 1:1?

My Bible reads:  John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The JWs New World Translation Bible changes that to read:  John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A god."

Both the JWs and the Reform / Calvinist are changing the meaning of the Bible - to fit their man-made beliefs into the Bible.  That is called Eisegesis - the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into Scripture.  It is commonly referred to as reading into the text of the Bible.

Eisegesis is reading INTO the Bible - what man want it to say.

Exegesis is reading FROM the Bible - what God intended it to say.

Let me close by saying that this is NOT meant to be an attack against my Reform / Calvinist or Jehovah's Witnesses Friends.  It is just that I could not look the other way when I feel that the meaning of this graphic is so wrong.  God bless, Bill

And to my delight, after I posted my thoughts above, which I have edited and tried to enhance - a long time, very dear Friend and Christian brother, Mark, whom I highly respect, responded to my post:

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MARK:  I personally don't think this comment from Beeke was very helpful either.

(But) I believe (your) comparing JWs to Calvinists was quite the straw-man setup for your argument.  When Christ said, "It is finished!" He was clearly saying to the Father that He completed His Father's will to die for sinners who will repent.  A sinner who does not repent is a lost soul.

If Jesus died for ALL as you define in (the word) "WORLD" in John 3:16. . . Then why are there unrepentant sinners in Hell?  Is Christ's work on the cross not sufficient for ALL sins?  By that, (the) very nature of this theology - breeds universalism, meaning everyone, ALL, WHOLE WORLD, should be saved and in Heaven.  But you and I both know Hell exists and there are sinners there.

To make it simple, how would you exegete Scripture such as John 15:16, "You did not choose Me but I chose you . . ."
 
Or John 6:44, "No man can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . ."

Or Ephesians, 1:4 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world . . ."

Or the Golden Chain of Redemption, aka, Romans 8:28-30, "He foreknew . . .  predestined . . .  called . . .  justified . . .  glorified."

Ultimately, everything (especially salvation) boils down to the understanding of our place before a sovereign God - understanding God's sovereignty and holiness.  Does God in all His sovereignty have to wait for the sinner's decision to make His work on the cross efficacious?  So much for His sovereignty then, right?  In the words of Paul, "May it never be!" 

Romans 9:13-16 (esv), "As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'  (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'  (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Romans 9:17-19 (esv),"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.'  (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'

Romans 9:20-21 (esv), "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?'  (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Romans 9:22-24 (esv), "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

BILL GRAY:  Hi Mark, You reply, "When Christ said, "It is finished!" He was clearly saying to the Father that He completed His Father's will to die for sinners who will repent."   I believe we are both saying the same thing.  But I will clarify and say that it is my view that He was telling the Father AND all mankind that He has finished His work of making atonement available.  Now is up to the individual to believe and receive the free gift He has purchased with His blood.

You say, "If Jesus died for ALL as you define in (the word) "WORLD" in John 3:16. . . Then why are there unrepentant sinners in Hell?"  His work finished all that is necessary for atonement.  But it is up to each individual to receive it.  Those who do, have eternal life.  Those who do not, have chosen eternal damnation upon themselves.

Mark, you ask, "Does God in all His sovereignty have to wait for the sinner's decision to make His work on the cross efficacious?" 

As we know, God does not have to wait for anyone to do anything.  Why?  Because in His omniscience He knows everything you and I will do.  He knew the exact moment we were conceived in our mother's womb - and He knows the exact moment you and I will leave this world - and He knows our every thought in between those two moments.  So, no, God is not and does not have to wait - for He knows us in every way.

Then you ask, "Is Christ's work on the cross not sufficient for ALL sins?"

Yes, without question Christ's work on the cross assures full forgiveness for all sins - past, present, future.  But to receive that Justification, one has to believe and receive His full forgiveness by receiving Christ as personal Lord and Savior.

You tell me, "By that, (the) very nature of this theology breeds universalism, meaning everyone, ALL, (the) WHOLE WORLD, should be saved and in Heaven.  But you and I both know Hell exists and there are sinners there." 

Yes, the existence of hell is verified by Christ Himself - in Matthew 25:41 and in Luke 16:19-31.  In Matthew we read that hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels.  And in Luke 19-31, we learn that today all sinners are in Hades/Torment, the precursor to hell - eternal hell, which is designated for all mankind who will not believe.  Revelation 20:11-15 confirms Hell, the Lake of Fire, to be the final and eternal abode for Satan, his Antichrist and Prophet, all fallen angels - and all mankind who have or will reject Christ as Lord and Savior.

On the other hand, Universalism theology teaches that ALL people, regardless of their lives or Free Will choices - will eventually go to heaven.  That is not what Christ meant when He declared, "It is finished!"  The Bible is clear: Receive Christ, Receive eternal life - Reject Christ, Receive eternal damnation. 

The Universalist Unitarian Church of Riverside, and all other Universalist Unitarian churches, teach a Universalist theology and they invite folks of all beliefs to worship their gods together in their sanctuary, side by side, regardless of their beliefs - from Buddhism to Atheism and everything in between - sitting alongside Christians in worship.  But, what or who is there to worship if not God?

Next, Mark, you ask about specific Bible verses:

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you. . ."

That is a verse which demands an explanation and which many, clergy and lay teachers, hesitate to address.  So I will let a man far superior to me in Biblical knowledge respond:

Henry Allen Ironside was a Canadian-American Bible teacher, preacher, theologian, pastor, and author who pastored Moody Church in Chicago from 1929 to 1948.  Ironside was one of the most prolific Christian writers of the 20th Century and published more than 100 books, booklets, and pamphlets - a number of which are still in print.  One editorial reviewer wrote of a 2005 re-publication that, "Ironside's commentaries are a standard and have stood the test of time."

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H. A. Ironside Commentary on the Book of John:
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/isn/john.html

Bill Gray Note:  I am happy to confirm that I have this commentary in my personal library, and I treasure it.  However, I go to the web site above which I have archived to copy/paste so that I do not make any typo errors when quoting from his book.

Ironside's notes on John 15:16:

But there is something here in verse 16 (which) I must not pass over.  What does He say?  “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.”  Did not they choose Him?  Did not you choose Christ?  Yes, but not before He chose you.

Long before my heart was inclined to come to Christ, He touched me by the blessed Holy Spirit.  At last when I was utterly broken down and brought to repentance, and cried to Him in shame, “Save, Lord, or I perish,” He took me in and made me His own.

And then when it is a question of service, it is He who chooses (us) for this or that special work.  And it is He who selects our sphere of ministry, whether at home or abroad.  You remember the man who wanted to follow the Master, and the Lord said, “[No], go home…, and [show] how great things the Lord hath done for thee” (Mark 5:19).  We can glorify Christ in whatever place we may be and we must recognize that He chose that task for us.  “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you.”

Many people are troubled about ordination.  Folks ask, “Has anyone a right to preach who has not been ordained?”  In this Book (the Bible) you do not read of people being ordained to preach the Gospel.  You never get the word ordination connected with the actual setting apart of a man to preach the Gospel.  What about Timothy?   The word ordained was not used in Timothy's case.  “Well,” you say, “did you forget about Paul and Barnabas?”  No, but they had been preaching a long time in Antioch before the elders laid their hands on them.  Nobody authorized them by any service of ordination to go out and preach.  That is the Lord’s prerogative.  He said, “I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.”  The word ordained means “set apart.” (In other words) “I have chosen you.”

That is the ordination that counts.  All that the elders or others can do is to recognize what God has done already.  The Lord said in regard to Paul, when he was still Saul of Tarsus, “He is a chosen vessel unto me, to [bring] my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15).

And to Paul himself He said, “I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee” (Acts 26:16).  It is the Lord Himself who makes ministers, who gives men first to know Christ as their own Savior, and then sends them forth to preach.  “I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you” (John 15:16).

Mark, I believe that explanation also answers your questions re: John 6:44 and Ephesians 1:4.  Yes, He chose us - but for what?  Salvation or ministry?

You move on to Romans 8, "Or the Golden Chain of Redemption, aka, Romans 8:28-30, 'He foreknew... predestined... called... justified... glorified.' "

That one I can address.  God is omniscient, therefor He knows all things about you and me - from the moment of our conception to the moment that, through death or rapture, we leave this world.   Nothing we can or will do - can surprise God.  "Oops," is not in God's vocabulary.

Therefore, He foreknew us in all ways, meaning the He knows who will receive Christ and who will reject Him.  All are predestined: believers to eternal life, non-believers to eternal hell.

Did He call us?  Yes, that is the Holy Spirit leading all who will receive Him to the foot of the cross.  He has justified those who will believe, He is sanctifying all who do believe, and He will glorify all who leave this world believing in Jesus Christ.

Now, commenting on your photo of Charles Spurgeon and his quote: "Calvinism means the placing of the eternal God at the head of all things."  Amen to that.  However, that not only applies to Calvinism - but to Arminianism, Free Grace, and all other theologies which teach people the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Regardless of one's theology - God must be first or there is a problem in that person's Christian faith.

Mark, thank you for making me stretch to respond to your comments.  Your comments and thoughts expressed indeed do create one of my favorite times - an ongoing conversational Bible Study.  Thank you, my Christian brother and God bless, Bill

BILL GRAY:  My bad, I forgot to respond to one very important comment from you:  "(But) I believe (your) comparing JWs to Calvinists was quite the straw-man setup for your argument."

I agree with you completely that those two theologies are totally apples and oranges.  Calvinist are absolutely Christian believers and brethren, while unfortunately, JWs have completely lost the true Jesus Christ.

In my comments above I was only comparing the actions of both Calvinist and JWs in misreading or changing Scripture verses / passages to read INTO Scripture each one's predetermined theology - instead of reading FROM Scripture God's intended truth.

No comparison between my brethren in Calvinism and my Friends in the JWs' camp intended. God bless, Bill

MARK MASAKAYAN:  Bill, just one correction I'd like to address in your response.  You said, ". . . from the moment of our conception to the moment that, through death or rapture, we leave this world."

Do you mean God's conception of us, or our conception in the womb?  I think you know where I'm going with this.  God is timeless.  He knows all irrespective of time.

BILL GRAY:  Maybe your question should be the difference between "creation" and "conception."  In Genesis 1:1 we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."   Then in Genesis 1:27-28, we read, "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.  Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; .  .  .' "               

God created man as male and female so that they might be able to "conceive" and through that conception - create a new human being, a child.  God created mankind - and then gave mankind the ability and means to conceive new humans as babies.

MARK MASAKAYAN:   Please don't be offended, but from your response, there are so many signs that you are a closet Calvinist!  Just come out already and relinquish every bit of self to enjoy the fulness of His sovereignty.

Bill Gray Note:  My dear Christian brother has a great sense of humor!  But if you look at my graphic composite below, you will see that, at best, I could only be a 1-point Calvinist and, unfortunately, a 4-point Arminian.  However my main disagreement with both precludes me joining either camp.  I could never agree with the Calvinist version of Predestination - and I could never agree with the Arminians that a true believer can lose his/her salvation.  My compass points in only one direction, that I am an Exegetical Biblicist, one whose sole authority and truth come from reading FROM the Bible.

Like I said in the past, I believe you are saved.  I have seen your fruits, Bill.  And me, oh my, the things God has used (them) for - a blessing to believers indeed.

But you weren't saved because you told God, "Save me."  You were saved because God (has) thought of you since eternity past and said that Bill is mine, and a vessel of righteousness unto my glory alone.  God makes the first move and we cannot tell Him no once we've been regenerated.  We have no more sovereignty over God saving us than Paul did on the Damascus road.

BILL GRAY:  Let's kind of walk through your last thoughts. 

1. But you weren't saved because you told God, "Save me."  ~  That is so true.  I was saved because I heard the Gospel (work of the Holy Spirit) and believed (Ephesians 1:13).  From that I was sealed, i.e, indwelled by the Holy Spirit until I die or I am raptured (Ephesians 4:30).

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"

God's grace is a gift which allows us to be saved.  At that moment we do not become robots, performing by rote.  By grace God has made it possible for us to be saved through faith.  But because we are not robots, God has given us the gift of Free Will.  And using that God-given gift of Free Will - we MUST make a decision:  Eternal life in Christ - OR - Eternal destruction without Christ.

Mark, you and I chose eternal life in Christ.  Sadly many have and will continue to reject Christ and choose eternal condemnation separated from God.

2.  You were saved because God (has) thought of you since eternity past  ~  One slight correction:  God has given us everything we need to believe and be saved.  But the final decision has to be upon our shoulders.  Otherwise we would not be people loving God, we would be robots mandated to love God.

3.  God (has) thought of you since eternity past and said that Bill is mine, and a vessel of righteousness unto my glory alone  ~  Yes, the omniscient God knew me and loved me from eternity past - and He will love me into eternity future.  But because He wants us to sincerely love and want Him - He gave us the gift of Free Will so that me might, of our own choice, choose to love and follow Him.

 4. God makes the first move and we cannot tell Him no once we've been regenerated  ~  Read your statement closely - and you will see that we agree with one another.  Yes, God makes the first move. That is why He sent His Son to die on the cross, to offer us the gift of eternal life.  But we have to accept His gift.  Once again, you are right on target, that we cannot say no to Him, nor leave Him, once we receive and accept His gift of eternal life.  The moment we become His adopted child, no one can snatch us out of His hands, nor can we walk away from Him (John 10:27-29)

5. We have no more sovereignty over God saving us than Paul did on the Damascus road  ~  On the road to Damascus, God called Paul, but Paul had to believe and receive his calling to preach the Gospel.  This is from H.A. Ironside's Commentary on the book of John shown above:

He said, “I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.”  The word ordained means “set apart.” (In other words) “I have chosen you.”

That is the ordination that counts.  All that the elders or others can do is to recognize what God has done already.  The Lord said in regard to Paul, when he was still Saul of Tarsus, “He is a chosen vessel unto me, to [bring] my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15).

And to Paul himself He said, “I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee” (Acts 26:16).  It is the Lord Himself who makes ministers, who gives men first to know Christ as their own Savior, and then sends them forth to preach.  “I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you” (John 15:16).

John 15:16 (kjv), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:.  .  ."

To my very special Christian brother, Mark, I pray you will harvest some portion of what I have personally learned in compiling this exciting dialogue.   No Bible study has challenged me more, and that is why it has taken me days to compose this dialogue blog.  Thank you, my Friend, for forcing me to stretch my thinking and understanding of the various theologies.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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This Is An Interesting And Unusual Episode Of The Johnny Carson Show - An Interview With Madelyn Murray O'Hair.

Evidently Billy Graham had been on the Johnny Carson show at a earlier date and made remarks about Madelyn Murray O'Hair and atheism which she did not like.  Johnny Carson was gracious enough to allow her to come on his show to refute Billy Graham.  As you can see from this short clip, O'Hair speaks well and with some degree of intelligence - and even tells how many American colleges and universities have invited her to address their students.  I guess this was also the beginning stages of our institutions of higher education moving toward radical secularism, humanism, leftism, and indoctrination.

For those who do not know this woman, Madelyn Murray O'Hair was the most disliked woman in American - a dyed in the wool atheist - who, along with her ACLU friends, was responsible for the 1963 Supreme Court Decision which removed God and Prayer from all American public schools.  And then she went on a crusade to remove God from all public American life.  She spent her life fighting to remove God and Christianity from America.

Her reasoning, at least part of it according to her - was that she did not want her son, William, to be exposed to prayer and God in his schools.  While she accomplished that goal - she also had the teaching of Traditional Moral Values removed from all schools and replaced by Relativism.  What is Relativism?  That is the teaching that "If it feels right to you, then it is right for you."  In other words, what is right and moral for you - is what you want to be right and moral for you.  And, thanks in big part to Madelyn Murray O'Hair, today they begin teaching that in Kindergarten. 

Can you imagine a Kindergarten, Grade School / Elementary School, or Middle School child being able to decide what is right and moral for him/her?  That is the result of O'Hair's efforts.

As an adult, Madelyn Murray O'Hair's oldest son, William, turned from her and her teachings and became a strong Christian believer - and for years he has served as the chairman of the "Religious Freedom Coalition," a non-profit Christian organization based in Washington DC.

What happened to Madelyn Murray O'Hair?  Even though William was able to pull away from his mother, his daughter, Robin, and his younger brother, Garth, stayed under the demonic control of O'Hair - and all three were brutally murdered by one of her followers and helpers, David Waters, and several of his associates - and buried in shallow graves.

FBI investigators confirmed that the charred remains they found on a remote southwest Texas ranch in January are those of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, her son Jon Garth Murray, and her granddaughter Robin Murray O'Hair.  They disappeared from San Antonio in1995 along with $500,000 in gold coins.

I applaud Johnny Carson for the professional manner in which he conducted this interview.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair Talks Atheism, Religion, and Four Letter Words - Carson Tonight Show - 10.12.1972
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aWFU2f4Hsg

THIS ARTICLE will give your more info on Madelyn Murray O'Hair:

The Mysterious Disappearance and Grisly Murder of Madalyn Murray O’Hair
https://delanirbartlette.medium.com/the-mysterious-disappearance-and-grisly-murder-of-madalyn-murray-ohair-6465c9f9d6ce

God bless, Bill

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