Discussions on Facebook and on forums such as the TimesDaily Religion Forum, where I posted for seven years, can at times become "spitting contests" - and yet they can still often be very beneficial.
I have a long time Friend and Christian brother who has said to me, "Bill, what benefit can you get from arguing with people on an open forum or social network? Most of them are atheists and just want to denigrate God and our Christian faith!"
Well, first, even though there are a lot of atheists, agnostics, and just plain old vanilla-flavored non-believers on these forums - there are also believers, both new and mature, and there are also folks who are seeking - with feelings that they need to surrender their lives to God, but often still with questions and still not quite ready to walk the aisle at an altar call - or even respond to a one-on-one witness.
And there are sincere Christian brethren who are mired in liberal theology churches, or in legalistic theology churches - who will dispute many of our conservative Christian beliefs and doctrines.
"So, Bill, what benefit can come from you arguing with those in liberal or legalistic theology churches, or with atheists, agnostics, and non-believers?"
Glad you asked. First, let me assure you that I am not "arguing" for the sake of arguing with these folks. I hate disagreements and arguments. I prefer to say I am refuting (Acts 17:11) false beliefs, teachings, or premises which they have thrown out for all to read. That is called "apologetics."
And, there are two people who can, prayerfully, benefit from my discussions with these folks. The first I pray are those folks who are seeking, with feelings that they need to surrender their lives to God, but often still with questions and are still not quite ready to walk the aisle at an altar call - and also those brothers and sisters who are preparing to do one-on-one witnessing to those dear seekers.
The other person who benefitsfrom these discussion is me. Yes, each time I respond to a false or erroneous premise which has been presented - I have to do my homework to make sure I am giving a truly Biblical response.
I have often said that the best way to learn a subject is to teach it. In 1957, in the Air Force, my commanding officer made me a "voluntary" instructor on our F-86 airborne radar/weapons fire control system. Why? Because out of about 100 airmen in our wing who took that career field annual test, only 7 of us passed.
So, our commanding officer announced that we were starting a new training class - and that we had 7 "volunteer" instructors. I had to study each night just to stay ahead of the class. That same approach also applies to doing apologetic writing, frequently I learn as I am responding.
With that introduction, let me share with you an abbreviated dialogue which has been on the Facebook "Christian Life And Thought" group for the past week. A group member, Elsie, began this dialogue on October 5th, with this initial post (which also has been abbreviated):
Then a brother from England, Stephen, came into the discussion with two surprising thoughts. In the running dialogue below, I make the following assertion, "Keep in mind that God is immutable, that God never changes, that God is perfect in all ways. And, He needs to repent? Really?" (Read in context of the following discussion).
And, Stephen responds,"Its not possible to prove a negative. Bill. its just not there."
In all the years I have been having apologetic discussions on forums, only atheists have tossed out that challenge to me. I have often had non-believers, especially atheists, use that approach to deny the supernatural aspect of God and our Christian faith: "Bill, its not possible to prove a negative" - which is what they claim we are doing when we present the preexisting, supernatural nature of God.
The second point from Stephen which rather surprised me is that he is quoting from theYoung's Literal Translation Bible, a translation of the Bible into English, published in 1862. I am not saying he is using a wrong translation, just that in all the years I have been jostling with folks on forums - I have never had a person use that translation to refute me. King James, yes ~ New King James, yes ~ NASB, NIV, ESV, and such, yes. But never before the YLT (Young's Literal Translation).
But that is beside the point, for all translations (but not paraphrases such as the Message) are from God and whichever translation best helps a person study and understand God's Word - is a good translation.
Now we can get to the portion of the"Christian Life And Thought" group discussion which inspired me to write this blog:
Stephen, since you prefer a translation which goes back to 1862, I will begin with a Bible commentary which also dates back to about that time:
Jonah Commentary - by A. R. Fausset:
Jonah 3:1-10: "Jonah's second commission to Nineveh: the Ninevites repent of their evil way: so God repents of the evil threatened."
I don't believe anyone explains the meaning of Jonah 3:10 better than the late Dr. J. Vernon McGee, a highly recognized Bible teacher and pastor. So, without a lot of repetition from me regarding the Immutable attribute of God, let me share this short audio recording of Dr. McGee explaining it in his wonderful, down to earth way:
Stephen, my Friend, I am happy we have taken the time to discuss repentance and the immutability of God. I pray we will have more fruitful dialogues.
And, I pray that this dialogue has been useful to all my other Friends, that it adds to your arsenal of Scripture knowledge which will be helpful when you are called upon to defend God's Word and our Christian faith to an unbelieving world.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
I have a long time Friend and Christian brother who has said to me, "Bill, what benefit can you get from arguing with people on an open forum or social network? Most of them are atheists and just want to denigrate God and our Christian faith!"
Well, first, even though there are a lot of atheists, agnostics, and just plain old vanilla-flavored non-believers on these forums - there are also believers, both new and mature, and there are also folks who are seeking - with feelings that they need to surrender their lives to God, but often still with questions and still not quite ready to walk the aisle at an altar call - or even respond to a one-on-one witness.
And there are sincere Christian brethren who are mired in liberal theology churches, or in legalistic theology churches - who will dispute many of our conservative Christian beliefs and doctrines.
"So, Bill, what benefit can come from you arguing with those in liberal or legalistic theology churches, or with atheists, agnostics, and non-believers?"
Glad you asked. First, let me assure you that I am not "arguing" for the sake of arguing with these folks. I hate disagreements and arguments. I prefer to say I am refuting (Acts 17:11) false beliefs, teachings, or premises which they have thrown out for all to read. That is called "apologetics."
And, there are two people who can, prayerfully, benefit from my discussions with these folks. The first I pray are those folks who are seeking, with feelings that they need to surrender their lives to God, but often still with questions and are still not quite ready to walk the aisle at an altar call - and also those brothers and sisters who are preparing to do one-on-one witnessing to those dear seekers.
The other person who benefitsfrom these discussion is me. Yes, each time I respond to a false or erroneous premise which has been presented - I have to do my homework to make sure I am giving a truly Biblical response.
I have often said that the best way to learn a subject is to teach it. In 1957, in the Air Force, my commanding officer made me a "voluntary" instructor on our F-86 airborne radar/weapons fire control system. Why? Because out of about 100 airmen in our wing who took that career field annual test, only 7 of us passed.
So, our commanding officer announced that we were starting a new training class - and that we had 7 "volunteer" instructors. I had to study each night just to stay ahead of the class. That same approach also applies to doing apologetic writing, frequently I learn as I am responding.
With that introduction, let me share with you an abbreviated dialogue which has been on the Facebook "Christian Life And Thought" group for the past week. A group member, Elsie, began this dialogue on October 5th, with this initial post (which also has been abbreviated):
Elsie: Repentance is Necessary for Salvation! It is true that there are numerous Bible verses that speak of the promise of salvation, with no mention of repentance. These merely say to "believe" on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9).
However, the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah 59:1,2). Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.
Bill Gray: Hi Elsie, I know that our brethren in the Free Grace Movement believe that repentance is not a part of salvation - that through believing only we are saved. They relate repentance to being works, like baptism. To me, baptism is a physical thing we do after we are saved.
But repentance is not a physical thing. Instead it is a change within us, a spiritual change, when we believe and receive Him as Lord and Savior. To say that we can believe without an inner repentance - is like saying we can breathe - but we do not need oxygen. They go together like ham and eggs. My thoughts. God bless, Bill
Then a brother from England, Stephen, came into the discussion with two surprising thoughts. In the running dialogue below, I make the following assertion, "Keep in mind that God is immutable, that God never changes, that God is perfect in all ways. And, He needs to repent? Really?" (Read in context of the following discussion).
And, Stephen responds,"Its not possible to prove a negative. Bill. its just not there."
In all the years I have been having apologetic discussions on forums, only atheists have tossed out that challenge to me. I have often had non-believers, especially atheists, use that approach to deny the supernatural aspect of God and our Christian faith: "Bill, its not possible to prove a negative" - which is what they claim we are doing when we present the preexisting, supernatural nature of God.
The second point from Stephen which rather surprised me is that he is quoting from theYoung's Literal Translation Bible, a translation of the Bible into English, published in 1862. I am not saying he is using a wrong translation, just that in all the years I have been jostling with folks on forums - I have never had a person use that translation to refute me. King James, yes ~ New King James, yes ~ NASB, NIV, ESV, and such, yes. But never before the YLT (Young's Literal Translation).
But that is beside the point, for all translations (but not paraphrases such as the Message) are from God and whichever translation best helps a person study and understand God's Word - is a good translation.
Now we can get to the portion of the"Christian Life And Thought" group discussion which inspired me to write this blog:
Stephen: Repentance is "an after-thought." It means to "think again." To "think afterwards." And of course this does not automatically lead to a change of behaviour (or) Conversion. One cannot assume it means to give up sin. Because God repented!
Bill Gray: Hi Stephen, To repent means that one has done something wrong or sinful. What has God ever done that He would need to repent? Can you share Scripture proving your statement? Keep in mind that God is immutable, that God never changes, that God is perfect in all ways. And, He needs to repent? Really? God bless, Bill
Stephen: Its not possible to prove a negative. Bill. its just not there.
Stephen: Jonah 3:9-10 (YLT), "Who knoweth? He doth turn back, and God hath repented, and hath turned back from the heat of His anger. And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them."
Amos 7:6 (YLT), ."The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD. . . The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, said the Lord GOD"
Stephen, since you prefer a translation which goes back to 1862, I will begin with a Bible commentary which also dates back to about that time:
Jonah Commentary - by A. R. Fausset:
Jonah 3:1-10: "Jonah's second commission to Nineveh: the Ninevites repent of their evil way: so God repents of the evil threatened."
10. God repented of the evil - When the message was sent to them, they were so ripe for (the) judgment that a purpose of destruction to take effect in forty days was the only word God's righteous abhorrence of sin admitted of as to them. But when they repented, the position in which they stood towards God's righteousness was altered.
So God's mode of dealing with them must alter accordingly - if God is not to be inconsistent with His own immutable character of dealing with men according to their works and state of heart - taking vengeance at last on the hardened impenitent - and delighting to show mercy on the penitent.
Compare Abraham's reasoning, (Gen 18:25, Eze 18:21-25, Jer 18:7-10). What was really a change in them and in God's corresponding dealings is, in condescension to human conceptions, represented as a change in God (compare Exd 32:14 ), who, in His essential righteousness and mercy, changeth not (Num 23:19, 1Sa 15:29, Mal 3:6, Jam 1:17 ).
I don't believe anyone explains the meaning of Jonah 3:10 better than the late Dr. J. Vernon McGee, a highly recognized Bible teacher and pastor. So, without a lot of repetition from me regarding the Immutable attribute of God, let me share this short audio recording of Dr. McGee explaining it in his wonderful, down to earth way:
Dr. J. Vernon McGee, Audio Commentary on Jonah 3:10: http://www.blbclassic.org/audio_video/asxgen/?AuthorID=24&commInfo=35&SectionID=32&ID=6893&t=a
Stephen, my Friend, I am happy we have taken the time to discuss repentance and the immutability of God. I pray we will have more fruitful dialogues.
And, I pray that this dialogue has been useful to all my other Friends, that it adds to your arsenal of Scripture knowledge which will be helpful when you are called upon to defend God's Word and our Christian faith to an unbelieving world.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
No comments:
Post a Comment