Today, as we celebrate the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ -- I would like to share the HFT Connect eNewsletter below from David Hocking's Bible Teaching Ministry -- HOPE FOR TODAY. David is one of the more knowledgeable of our Protestant leaders on End Time Events (Eschatology) and the Jewish religion and culture; and how the two are intertwined.
God told Abraham, and through him, us:
Genesis 12:1-2, Now the LORD said to Abram, 'Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; and I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;'"
That nation toward which God was leading Abraham and his descendants -- is the nation of Israel. And, although it is small, Israel, with the grace of God, is a powerful nation. The miracles which have occurred in their march to independence and sovereignty since 1948 can only be attributed to the hand of God.
Americans and our leaders would be well advised to pay heed to God promise in Genesis 12:3, "And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
That blessing for "all the families of the earth" is our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ -- the promised Messiah.
Let us pray that our current national leaders will stop working so hard to bless the oil producing Arab nations -- and remember that Israel is the land promised to Abraham and his descendants, the Israelis, by God Himself. And, God has made it abundantly clear that if we, America, curse Israel -- He will curse us.
Many years ago, in our Fil-Am Church of Irvine, we had guests from Jews For Jesus, a Messianic Christian organization, come to our service and explain the Seder to us and how we, as Christian believers, can relate this Jewish celebration to our celebration of the Resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Today, on this blessed Resurrection Day, it is good for us to look at how our Jewish friends celebrate their Passover and the relationship between the two. These two web sites will give you a better understanding of that relationship:
The Messianic Israel Alliance:
http://www.messianicisrael.com/news/teachings/passover-and-the-resurrection.html?Itemid=39
Have You Met The Jewish Jesus:
http://www.jewishjesus.org/Article5.html
My Friend, God will bless us as we bless His people, Israel. Please feel free to share this with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Let's keep sharing and telling folks that our Savior Lives!
I pray that you and your family have enjoyed a glorious Easter -- as we recall the Resurrection of our Lord.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BLESSED RESURRECTION DAY!
DAVID HOCKING, HOPE FOR TODAY
HFT Connect, April 4, 2010
http://www.davidhocking.org
Today (all over the world) Christians meet to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord Yeshua! Praise God - He is alive and coming again! Last Monday, March 29, was Nisan 14 on the Jewish calendar -the day of Passover. According to Leviticus 23, the Sunday after the week in which Passover begins is the Jewish festival of FIRSTFRUITS which I Corinthians 15 teaches is the celebration of the Messiah's resurrection!
Tonight, David & Carole will be celebrating the Passover with friends and the family of Shuvah Yisrael Messianic Congregation in Irvine, California, where our good friend, Larry Feldman, is the congregational leader and Bible teacher. Hundreds will gather this evening at the Hyatt Regency in Irvine to celebrate this wonderful event!
Here is a brief outline of a Messianic Passover taken from the following passages: Exodus 12:1-20; Leviticus 23:4-8; Deuteronomy 16:1-8
The word "Haggadah" is Hebrew for "story" or "narrative" or "showing forth." Add the meal, and it is called the "Seder" which means "order."
Here are the items on the Seder plate:
Karpas - parsley - used for "dipping." It reminds us of the arrival of spring when new growth begins. The Passover marks the end of slavery, but the beginning of a new of freedom, both physically and spiritually.
Zeroa - shank bone of a lamb - reminds us of the central theme of sacrifice in the celebration of the Passover.
Moror - bitter herbs - reminds us of the bitterness of slavery under the Egyptians, but also of the bitterness of life without true freedom and redemption.
Charoset - sweet mixture of nuts, apples, and wine - reminds us of the mortar used in building in Egypt - the sweet taste reminds us of God's kindness which makes slavery easier to bear.
Chazeret - horseradish - used for the second "dipping"
Betazag - roasted egg - symbol of a "Festival Offering" offered in the temple on each of the three required festivals to attend - Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. Also called the "Chaggigah" - also a symbol of mourning over the loss of the two temples.
THE FOUR CUPS OF WINE - Exodus 6:6-7
1. The Cup of Sanctification (Thanksgiving) - "I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians"
2. The Cup of Judgment (Plagues) - "I will rid you out of their bondage"
3. The Cup of Redemption (Blessing) - "I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments"
4. The Cup of Praise - "I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians."
The meal begins with the "Brechat HaNer" - the blessing of the candles - the lady of the house lights them - reminds us that the Messiah was the Seed of the woman to bring light to the world.
1. The Kiddush - the first cup of sanctification and thanksgiving - everyone drinks of it.
2. The Urchatz - the washing of the hands - probably the place where our Lord washed the disciples' feet - John 13:1-17
3. The Karpas - parsley dipped in small bowl of salt water (represents the tears shed in Egypt and the Red Sea - both of which are salty - everyone eats the parsley dipped in salt water.)
4. The Yachutz - breaking of the middle matzah - symbolizing our Lord's death - being broken for us - matzah is "pierced" and "striped" and "unleavened" - hidden (His burial) and later to appear (resurrection) - afikomen - "dessert"
5. The Maggid - "telling of the story of the Exodus"
6. The Four Questions:
* Why is this night different from all other nights when we can eat regular bread, but on this night - only unleavened bread?
* Why do we eat only bitter herbs?
* Why do we dip two times?
* Why do we recline while we eat?
7. The Makot (slayings) - the cup of plagues. The use of the finger reminds us of the "finger of God" mentioned in Exodus 8:15
8. Zeroa (shank bone) - reminds us that our Messiah is the Lamb of God!
9. Sulchan Orech (dinner is served)
10. Afikomen (Breaking of Bread - after dinner)
11. The third cup - the Cup of Redemption
12. The Cup of Elijah filled & the door opened
13. The fourth cup - The Cup of Praise
And...Jews around the world will say: "NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM!"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NEWS REPORTS:
FORMER OBAMA AIDE NEW HEAD OF AIPAC
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (Arutz Sheva News):
Lee "Rosy" Rosenberg, a jazz recording industry veteran capitalist who accompanied U.S. President Barack Obama on his campaign trip to Israel two years ago, takes over on Sunday as the new President of American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Rosenberg also served on the President's national campaign finance committee.
The new AIPAC President hails from Chicago, the home state of President Obama, and also is on first-name terms with White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod, President Obama's senior advisor.
Steve Rosen, a former 23-year, high-ranking AIPAC official, told the Chicago Tribune, "I don't think AIPAC has made any secret of the reality that his friendship with the President played a role in Rosy's rise. He's a guy who works very hard at fundraising and in the political arena. It was not as if he was plucked out of nowhere. He paid his dues. But I'm sure nobody was blind to the fact that he's from Chicago."
Rosenberg is known as an expert in bringing in big money from powerful people who generally are not outwardly committed to Israel.
AIPAC claims more than 100,000 members and is considered the most powerful Jewish lobby in Washington. It held its annual three-day conference this past week and heard addresses from Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Their relationship has been sorely tested recently because of American and Arab opposition to Israel's building for Jews in long-established Jewish neighborhoods in parts of Jerusalem that were resorted to Israel in the Six-Day War in 1967.
"The fact that he and the president have had a relationship helps now," Illinois Democrat Rep. Mike Quigley told the Tribune.
Rosenberg's ventures have included real estate, a music recording company, and high-tech startups and investing in jazz documentaries.
He replaces Michigan-based David Victor, who recently signed an AIPAC letter asking Congress to "demand" that the Obama administration "enforce existing sanctions law and impose crippling new sanctions on Iran."
ISRAEL SEES DRAMATIC CHANGE IN US RELATIONS IN NEAR FUTURE
(Israel Today News)
While Israeli leaders try to downplay the current tension with the US, unnamed officials in Jerusalem acknowledge that Israel's relationship with America is likely to change dramatically for the worse over the course of President Barack Obama's term in office.
In remarks carried by Ha'aretz, Israeli government sources said the recent behavior of Obama and other high-ranking US officials toward Israel points to an imposed peace settlement with the Palestinians and wider Arab world over the next two years.
The sources noted that one of the US demands of Israel to make up for the recent perceived insult of continued Jewish building in Jerusalem was that all final status issues be on the table in upcoming US-brokered indirect peace talks.
If Israel agrees to that demand, it would mean giving the Obama Administration much more influence over the peace terms Israel would have to accept regarding issues such as control of Jerusalem, final borders and the return of so-called "Palestinian refugees."
Israeli officials again warned that Obama's behavior is hardening Palestinian positions and putting genuine peace even further out of reach. They also cautioned that Israeli public trust in America would further wane.
David Hocking
Hope For Today
http://www.davidhocking.org
Sunday, April 4, 2010
Saturday, April 3, 2010
He Has Risen! - That You Might Live!
Hi to my Forum Friends,
Late last night, I received an e-mail from my good Friend, Jim Miller, asking,"Bill on another note. I wonder if you could do me a favor. I wanted to post something about Jesus' time between his death and resurrection. I know of 1 Peter 3:19 but was hoping you might know the passage or passages that speak more specifically about his descent and his proclamation of victory. I looked and looked but can't find what I was searching for. Of course, I wanted to post it today so you may not have time. Please don't go to a lot of trouble looking stuff up but if you can help just off the top of your head, please do so. Thanks Bill, Jim
Hi Jim, thank you for raising this question which is so important to us -- not only during this Easter week; but at all times. Jesus Christ came in human form, our Redeemer Kinsman, to "pay in full" our pardon and to make eternal salvation available to all who will, by grace, through faith in Him, believe and receive this free gift. When, on the cross of Calvary, He declared, "It is finished!" (John 19:30) -- His earthly work had been accomplished. His blood "paid in full" the sin debt for all mankind. All we have to do is to believe and receive this free gift from Him.
But, many will ask, how about all those who died before Jesus Christ came to atone for our sins -- how can they be saved? They are saved exactly the same way as you and I are saved: by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. How, when He had not yet been born and died for us, could they be saved through Him. Hebrews 11 tells us of the great faith of those Old Testament saints; they believed in God and they trusted His promise to send their Messiah. Their faith was that their Messiah would come to save them -- and He did.
In Matthew 12:40, Jesus tells us, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Many will say that this is wrong, or that Jesus did not die on Friday. Yet, we must keep in mind that the Jews of Jesus' day had a different way of reckoning the 24 hour day. To them, the day ended at dusk, 6:00 PM, and a new day began. Jesus died on Friday afternoon and was taken to the tomb. He descended into Hades on Friday (day one), was there Saturday (day two), and rose on Sunday morning (day three). To the Jews of His time; that represented three days and three nights.
What did He do during those three days?
1 Peter 3:18-20, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."
Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, wrote in his commentary on 1 Peter:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jesus preached to the souls in prison. Now in the prophecy concerning Jesus, in Isaiah 61, says, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach the good tidings to the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those that are bound" (Isaiah 61:1).
What is he talking about? The prison was death by which men were bound. They were held captive (by death). Jesus came to open the prison to those who are bound, or to open Hades for those people who were bound there, who died before Jesus died for our sins. So when He died, He descended into hell. And He preached to those souls that were in prison. And when He ascended out of hell, He brought with Him those who had been captive.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In Ephesians 4:8-10, we read, ". . . 'When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.' Now this, 'He ascended' -- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things."
In his commentary, Pastor Chuck, for clarity, has paraphrased this, "He who has ascended is the same one who first of all descended into the lower parts of the earth. And when He ascended, he led the captives from their captivity" (Ephesians 4:8-9).
And, he explains:
(In) Luke's Gospel, the sixteenth chapter, Jesus describes what hell was like prior to His death: Two compartments, no capacity for crossing from one to the other. One was a place of torment, the other was a place of comfort. Those who died in faith went to the place of comfort and were comforted by father Abraham. They are the ones to whom Jesus preached when He descended into hell. But "For You (God) will not leave My (Jesus) soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27). But this same Jesus has God raised from the dead (Acts 3:15, 4:10).
And Matthew's Gospel, chapter twenty-seven, tells us that the graves of many of the saints were open and they were seen walking in the streets of Jerusalem after His resurrection from the dead. He led the captives from their captivity. So opening the prison.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A popular television Prosperity Preacher erroneously teaches that Jesus Christ died and went into hell where Satan punished Him for three days. This is totally unBiblical and wrong; yet, this man bases it upon this Scripture passage: 1 Peter 3:18-19, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison." According to him, Jesus Christ was in hell, in Torment, with all the other lost souls. Totally unBiblical -- and totally wrong.
So, what does this Scripture passage tell us? Yes, Jesus Christ died and went into Hades for three days -- and He preached to those in Hades. And, this passage does tell us that He preached to those who had once been disobedient in the time that Noah was building the ark. From Luke 16, we know there were two compartments in Hades at that time: One was Abraham's Bosom, Comfort, for those who died in faith -- the other was Torment, for those who died still following the world, the lost.
The Bible tells us He "made proclamation" -- in other words, preached. We can be sure that His preaching included two totally different messages: For those who died in faith, His proclamation would have been similar to the Bema Seat Judgment we will one day face -- a proclamation of our rewards in heaven. For those who died without God, His proclamation was surely similar to the Great White Throne Judgment which all those who are lost will face one day -- a proclamation of their eternal condemnation, self condemnation brought upon them by their continued rejection of God's mercy in Jesus Christ.
And, then, on the third day, Sunday, "He ascended, He led the captives from their captivity" (Ephesians 4:8-9). He took the Old Testament saints into heaven, where they are today. Jesus Christ hung a sign on the Abraham's Bosom side of Hades, "Closed. No Longer Needed. No Longer Occupied!"
Those Old Testament saints are in heaven today. When a Christian believer leaves this life -- he/she joins them in fellowship with Jesus Christ in heaven. One day, when the Rapture occurs -- we will all join them and we will all receive our glorified bodies so that we will be like Him. Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God, in His glorified human body -- and we will be like Him.
1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears (the Rapture), we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is."
This is a story of hope, of eternal security, eternal salvation -- for all Christian believers; Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, and the future Tribulation saints. We have an eternal home with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Blessed Assurance! Blessed Hope!
However, this is also a story of urgency, of the need, the desperate need -- for all of us who now believe -- to be sharing the Gospel of Salvation, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, diligently until He returns. Just imagine if your words, your deeds, bring even one soul into a life giving relationship with Jesus Christ -- imagine the great joy of meeting that brother or sister in heaven one day. In this life, we must celebrate our victory in Christ -- but, we must never be slack in telling the non-believer about Him and His love for them; of His desire to see everyone receive His "Paid In Full!" free gift of salvation.
Let that be your goal this Easter -- and all year long.
And, don't forget to share this message with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Today, do all you can to help one person make his/her reservations on the Glory Train.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
Late last night, I received an e-mail from my good Friend, Jim Miller, asking,
Hi Jim, thank you for raising this question which is so important to us -- not only during this Easter week; but at all times. Jesus Christ came in human form, our Redeemer Kinsman, to "pay in full" our pardon and to make eternal salvation available to all who will, by grace, through faith in Him, believe and receive this free gift. When, on the cross of Calvary, He declared, "It is finished!" (John 19:30) -- His earthly work had been accomplished. His blood "paid in full" the sin debt for all mankind. All we have to do is to believe and receive this free gift from Him.
But, many will ask, how about all those who died before Jesus Christ came to atone for our sins -- how can they be saved? They are saved exactly the same way as you and I are saved: by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. How, when He had not yet been born and died for us, could they be saved through Him. Hebrews 11 tells us of the great faith of those Old Testament saints; they believed in God and they trusted His promise to send their Messiah. Their faith was that their Messiah would come to save them -- and He did.
In Matthew 12:40, Jesus tells us, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Many will say that this is wrong, or that Jesus did not die on Friday. Yet, we must keep in mind that the Jews of Jesus' day had a different way of reckoning the 24 hour day. To them, the day ended at dusk, 6:00 PM, and a new day began. Jesus died on Friday afternoon and was taken to the tomb. He descended into Hades on Friday (day one), was there Saturday (day two), and rose on Sunday morning (day three). To the Jews of His time; that represented three days and three nights.
What did He do during those three days?
1 Peter 3:18-20, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."
Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, wrote in his commentary on 1 Peter:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jesus preached to the souls in prison. Now in the prophecy concerning Jesus, in Isaiah 61, says, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach the good tidings to the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those that are bound" (Isaiah 61:1).
What is he talking about? The prison was death by which men were bound. They were held captive (by death). Jesus came to open the prison to those who are bound, or to open Hades for those people who were bound there, who died before Jesus died for our sins. So when He died, He descended into hell. And He preached to those souls that were in prison. And when He ascended out of hell, He brought with Him those who had been captive.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In Ephesians 4:8-10, we read, ". . . 'When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.' Now this, 'He ascended' -- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things."
In his commentary, Pastor Chuck, for clarity, has paraphrased this, "He who has ascended is the same one who first of all descended into the lower parts of the earth. And when He ascended, he led the captives from their captivity" (Ephesians 4:8-9).
And, he explains:
(In) Luke's Gospel, the sixteenth chapter, Jesus describes what hell was like prior to His death: Two compartments, no capacity for crossing from one to the other. One was a place of torment, the other was a place of comfort. Those who died in faith went to the place of comfort and were comforted by father Abraham. They are the ones to whom Jesus preached when He descended into hell. But "For You (God) will not leave My (Jesus) soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27). But this same Jesus has God raised from the dead (Acts 3:15, 4:10).
And Matthew's Gospel, chapter twenty-seven, tells us that the graves of many of the saints were open and they were seen walking in the streets of Jerusalem after His resurrection from the dead. He led the captives from their captivity. So opening the prison.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A popular television Prosperity Preacher erroneously teaches that Jesus Christ died and went into hell where Satan punished Him for three days. This is totally unBiblical and wrong; yet, this man bases it upon this Scripture passage: 1 Peter 3:18-19, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison." According to him, Jesus Christ was in hell, in Torment, with all the other lost souls. Totally unBiblical -- and totally wrong.
So, what does this Scripture passage tell us? Yes, Jesus Christ died and went into Hades for three days -- and He preached to those in Hades. And, this passage does tell us that He preached to those who had once been disobedient in the time that Noah was building the ark. From Luke 16, we know there were two compartments in Hades at that time: One was Abraham's Bosom, Comfort, for those who died in faith -- the other was Torment, for those who died still following the world, the lost.
The Bible tells us He "made proclamation" -- in other words, preached. We can be sure that His preaching included two totally different messages: For those who died in faith, His proclamation would have been similar to the Bema Seat Judgment we will one day face -- a proclamation of our rewards in heaven. For those who died without God, His proclamation was surely similar to the Great White Throne Judgment which all those who are lost will face one day -- a proclamation of their eternal condemnation, self condemnation brought upon them by their continued rejection of God's mercy in Jesus Christ.
And, then, on the third day, Sunday, "He ascended, He led the captives from their captivity" (Ephesians 4:8-9). He took the Old Testament saints into heaven, where they are today. Jesus Christ hung a sign on the Abraham's Bosom side of Hades, "Closed. No Longer Needed. No Longer Occupied!"
Those Old Testament saints are in heaven today. When a Christian believer leaves this life -- he/she joins them in fellowship with Jesus Christ in heaven. One day, when the Rapture occurs -- we will all join them and we will all receive our glorified bodies so that we will be like Him. Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God, in His glorified human body -- and we will be like Him.
1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears (the Rapture), we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is."
This is a story of hope, of eternal security, eternal salvation -- for all Christian believers; Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, and the future Tribulation saints. We have an eternal home with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Blessed Assurance! Blessed Hope!
However, this is also a story of urgency, of the need, the desperate need -- for all of us who now believe -- to be sharing the Gospel of Salvation, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, diligently until He returns. Just imagine if your words, your deeds, bring even one soul into a life giving relationship with Jesus Christ -- imagine the great joy of meeting that brother or sister in heaven one day. In this life, we must celebrate our victory in Christ -- but, we must never be slack in telling the non-believer about Him and His love for them; of His desire to see everyone receive His "Paid In Full!" free gift of salvation.
Let that be your goal this Easter -- and all year long.
And, don't forget to share this message with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Today, do all you can to help one person make his/her reservations on the Glory Train.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
Friday, April 2, 2010
Ed Roberts - A Man You Never Knew - Touched Your Life!
Late last night, I looked in the TimesDaily Obit Section and found that an old friend had passed. Even though he touched most lives, even though his influence helped make it possible for you and me to be sharing these messages on a computer from our homes -- most will have no idea who this man was or what he did.
His name is Ed Roberts and he started a small company in Albuquerque to develop, build, and sell Heathkit (a name for we more mature) style build-it-yourself electronic devices such as test instruments. He went on to develop a build-it-yourself microcomputer called the Altair. This development attracted a young Harvard student named Bill Gates and his friend, Paul Allen. They went to Albuquerque, met Ed Roberts -- and became his programming staff. Later they went on to found Microsoft Corporation -- after the cut their teeth at MITS.
Shortly after that, I joined MITS and was responsible for building a network of independent Manufacturer's Sales Representatives throughout the western states and for presenting Microcomputer Seminars to the many people who were hungering to know more about this new thing called microprocessors.
One of the men I signed to sell the Altair in Northern California was Paul Terrell. At that time, there was one computer store in the world -- a mom and pop store in Los Angeles. Paul opened the second computer store, the Byte Shop -- and from there, he built the first franchise retail computer store chain, the Byte Shops. At his first Byte Shop in Mountain View, California, Paul met and, to some degree, influenced Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, who went on to found Apple Computer.
And, all of this grew from the entrepreneurial mind of Ed Roberts -- whom virtually no one knows. Some years later, Ed sold the rights to the Altair microcomputer and followed his main dream -- to become a medical doctor. While Bill Gates and Paul Allen went on to found Microsoft -- Ed Roberts went on to become Dr. Ed Roberts, family doctor. Each fulfilled his dream.
And because of these men, especially Ed Roberts -- I am able to sit at my personal computer in my home office and send you e-mails, post messages such as this on the Religion Forum, and devour massive amounts of information via internet. We all owe a great deal of thanks to this man virtually no one knew.
Below is the my post in the Ed Roberts Obit Guest Book:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My sincere condolence to the family of Ed Roberts. My name is Bill Gray and I worked for Ed at MITS in the mid-1970s. To me, he was the entrepreneur who saw a niche in the microcomputer market no one else noticed -- the old Heathkit build-it-yourself approach -- grabbed the ball and ran with it; scoring the winning touchdown.
This was a time before the PC computers, before the Apple computer, before disk operating systems, before CRT displays, and all the nice little gadgets we all take for granted today. Yet, this was a time when many people wanted to know more about this amazing little device called the microprocessor. And, Ed Roberts help satisfy that hunger people had to know more about the microprocessors, microcomputers, and how they could use them.
Many people may not realize that Ed Roberts was very instrumental in the startup of the Retail Computers stores we see in all communities today. And, his product influence was there for the beginning of Apple Computer.
Ed Roberts came up with the idea to outfit a large luxury RV as a computer showroom and sent it around the country giving Microcomputer Seminars. That year, he drove the RV right into the Anaheim Convention Center during the Fall Joint Computer Conference and parked it in the MITS booth. As a matter of fact, it became the MITS booth. And, it created excitement.
At that time, there was only one computer store; a mom and pop store in Los Angeles. These Microcomputer Seminars, which were Ed's brainchild were a big hit. I would fly to different cities, meet the Traveling RV Computer Showroom -- and we would present Seminars in local hotels.
During one eventful week, I presented two nights of Microcomputer Seminars at the Hyatt Hotel in Palo Alto, where I met an old friend, Paul Terrell. Paul was so impressed with the large audiences we had -- that he signed up to sell the Altair computers in Northern California. A month later, Paul opened the the Byte Shop computer store in Mountain View, California, to sell the Altair in a retail and hobby environment. Then, a short time later, he opened a second store in Palo Alto with his brother, then another in Oregon with another brother -- eventually building the first franchise computer store chain, the Byte Shops, into 250 stores nationwide.
His store in Mountain View became a focal point for computer hobbyists and Paul's involvement in a local hobby computer club helped to sell his Altair products. Through this connection, he met Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs -- and we know they went on to found Apple Computer.
In the 1970s, the microprocessor exploded on the scene -- and Ed Roberts, with his entrepreneurial skills helped turn this into the tsunami which has become the PC and Apple flood of computers in every home and office around the world. As I said, few people know the extent of Ed Robert's influence in starting the computer phenomenon we take for granted today.
Ed Roberts' name should be up there in the history books with all the giants who have created the computer society we have today -- for his entrepreneurial spirit and drive played a large role in this societal phenomenon. Talk to folks today and ask them if they know Ed Roberts -- and virtually all would say no. Tell them that he was instrumental in putting those computers into their homes and offices -- and they will be shocked. Ed Roberts is most certainly the most unsung hero of our computer society today.
Thank you, Ed. And, thank you for allowing me to be a small cog in that movement of the 1970s computer tsunami you started.
Once again, my sincere condolence to all of Ed Roberts' family and friend.
May God bless and comfort you in your loss,
Bill Gray
Southern California
billdory@pacbell.net
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Have you ever thought about how much our lives are touched in so many ways -- by people we do not even know exists? Now, you know that one man, Ed Roberts, has touched your life.
This is a link to the condolence message, "Remembering Ed Roberts," posted jointly by Bill Gates and Paul Allen:
http://www.thegatesnotes.com/Thinking/article.aspx?ID=126
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
His name is Ed Roberts and he started a small company in Albuquerque to develop, build, and sell Heathkit (a name for we more mature) style build-it-yourself electronic devices such as test instruments. He went on to develop a build-it-yourself microcomputer called the Altair. This development attracted a young Harvard student named Bill Gates and his friend, Paul Allen. They went to Albuquerque, met Ed Roberts -- and became his programming staff. Later they went on to found Microsoft Corporation -- after the cut their teeth at MITS.
Shortly after that, I joined MITS and was responsible for building a network of independent Manufacturer's Sales Representatives throughout the western states and for presenting Microcomputer Seminars to the many people who were hungering to know more about this new thing called microprocessors.
One of the men I signed to sell the Altair in Northern California was Paul Terrell. At that time, there was one computer store in the world -- a mom and pop store in Los Angeles. Paul opened the second computer store, the Byte Shop -- and from there, he built the first franchise retail computer store chain, the Byte Shops. At his first Byte Shop in Mountain View, California, Paul met and, to some degree, influenced Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, who went on to found Apple Computer.
And, all of this grew from the entrepreneurial mind of Ed Roberts -- whom virtually no one knows. Some years later, Ed sold the rights to the Altair microcomputer and followed his main dream -- to become a medical doctor. While Bill Gates and Paul Allen went on to found Microsoft -- Ed Roberts went on to become Dr. Ed Roberts, family doctor. Each fulfilled his dream.
And because of these men, especially Ed Roberts -- I am able to sit at my personal computer in my home office and send you e-mails, post messages such as this on the Religion Forum, and devour massive amounts of information via internet. We all owe a great deal of thanks to this man virtually no one knew.
Below is the my post in the Ed Roberts Obit Guest Book:
My sincere condolence to the family of Ed Roberts. My name is Bill Gray and I worked for Ed at MITS in the mid-1970s. To me, he was the entrepreneur who saw a niche in the microcomputer market no one else noticed -- the old Heathkit build-it-yourself approach -- grabbed the ball and ran with it; scoring the winning touchdown.
This was a time before the PC computers, before the Apple computer, before disk operating systems, before CRT displays, and all the nice little gadgets we all take for granted today. Yet, this was a time when many people wanted to know more about this amazing little device called the microprocessor. And, Ed Roberts help satisfy that hunger people had to know more about the microprocessors, microcomputers, and how they could use them.
Many people may not realize that Ed Roberts was very instrumental in the startup of the Retail Computers stores we see in all communities today. And, his product influence was there for the beginning of Apple Computer.
Ed Roberts came up with the idea to outfit a large luxury RV as a computer showroom and sent it around the country giving Microcomputer Seminars. That year, he drove the RV right into the Anaheim Convention Center during the Fall Joint Computer Conference and parked it in the MITS booth. As a matter of fact, it became the MITS booth. And, it created excitement.
At that time, there was only one computer store; a mom and pop store in Los Angeles. These Microcomputer Seminars, which were Ed's brainchild were a big hit. I would fly to different cities, meet the Traveling RV Computer Showroom -- and we would present Seminars in local hotels.
During one eventful week, I presented two nights of Microcomputer Seminars at the Hyatt Hotel in Palo Alto, where I met an old friend, Paul Terrell. Paul was so impressed with the large audiences we had -- that he signed up to sell the Altair computers in Northern California. A month later, Paul opened the the Byte Shop computer store in Mountain View, California, to sell the Altair in a retail and hobby environment. Then, a short time later, he opened a second store in Palo Alto with his brother, then another in Oregon with another brother -- eventually building the first franchise computer store chain, the Byte Shops, into 250 stores nationwide.
His store in Mountain View became a focal point for computer hobbyists and Paul's involvement in a local hobby computer club helped to sell his Altair products. Through this connection, he met Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs -- and we know they went on to found Apple Computer.
In the 1970s, the microprocessor exploded on the scene -- and Ed Roberts, with his entrepreneurial skills helped turn this into the tsunami which has become the PC and Apple flood of computers in every home and office around the world. As I said, few people know the extent of Ed Robert's influence in starting the computer phenomenon we take for granted today.
Ed Roberts' name should be up there in the history books with all the giants who have created the computer society we have today -- for his entrepreneurial spirit and drive played a large role in this societal phenomenon. Talk to folks today and ask them if they know Ed Roberts -- and virtually all would say no. Tell them that he was instrumental in putting those computers into their homes and offices -- and they will be shocked. Ed Roberts is most certainly the most unsung hero of our computer society today.
Thank you, Ed. And, thank you for allowing me to be a small cog in that movement of the 1970s computer tsunami you started.
Once again, my sincere condolence to all of Ed Roberts' family and friend.
May God bless and comfort you in your loss,
Bill Gray
Southern California
billdory@pacbell.net
Have you ever thought about how much our lives are touched in so many ways -- by people we do not even know exists? Now, you know that one man, Ed Roberts, has touched your life.
This is a link to the condolence message, "Remembering Ed Roberts," posted jointly by Bill Gates and Paul Allen:
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
Tuesday, March 30, 2010
LESSONS/HABITS LEARNED YOUNG -- LAST A LIFETIME!
On the TimesDaily (Florence, Alabama) News Forum, a Friend, Tommy, shared an article with us:
http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20100323/APN/1003231578
He made the observation,"Was prayer or Bible reading ever allowed over school intercoms? I attended public school and I don't remember it ever happening. This discussion has gotten way out of hand. Doesn't anyone possess a sense of balance anymore?"
Like Tommy, I do not recall ever hearing a prayer or Scripture reading over a school intercom or pubic address system. But, then, I do not recall if our elementary schools and high school in Sheffield even had an intercom or public address system. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall ever hearing an intercom announcement. But, I was in elementary school in the 1940s and at Sheffield High from 1951 to 1955. Possibly, we did not even have an public address system at that time.
But, if we did have a public address system during those days -- I do not believe it would have been appropriate to have prayer and Scripture reading over the PA system. We were in school to be taught Reading-Riting-Rithmetic; not religion. However, I do recall, with very warm feelings, the weekly assembly meetings where we always had a local clergy speak with the student body. And, no one complained -- not even the non-believers such as I was then -- or even the atheists, if we had any.
Each week, a local clergy would come to speak with us. The local Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish clergy took turns. And, the one most memorable and most enjoyed by we students was very likely the Jewish rabbi. He had a great sense of humor -- telling us, since we could not pronounce his name, "Just call me Rabbi Rubber Band." His name sounded something like that -- so, he made it easy for us to remember him -- and his messages.
Even though I was not a Christian believer then; the teachings I learned in those assemblies have stuck with me over the years -- even when I did not notice. Christian teachings at this vulnerable stage of life for young people can change the future course of life for many young people.
This reminds me of a thought I had today -- of how habits learned at a young age, tend to stay with us throughout life. At the age of 17, I went into the Air Force. One thing we were taught in the Air Force was to consistently do things the right way, i.e., when we had clothing hung, it had to be done so neatly; when we had wash cloths and towels hung -- they had to be squared as they hung. Even to this day, when I see a wash cloth or a towel hung crookedly -- I cannot resist squaring it up, making it straight.
Another reaction learned from my high school days, which came to mind today: If I am home alone and have to go to the restroom; I will always check to see that the front door is locked first. It is a habit I cannot seem to break. Why do I have this form of insecurity? When I was a student at Sheffield High, there was a real "chip on the shoulder" attitude between the boys from Sheffield High and the boys from Coffee High. At that time the only high school in Florence was Coffee. So, this attitude of "we're tougher than you" existed between SHS and CHS boys.
One evening I was in Florence and before hitch-hiking back to Sheffield, stopped in the Youth Center which was on the east side of Court Street across from where the Holiday Inn hotel used to be. I went into the restroom -- and while sitting there, suddenly the door flew open and a Florence boy demanded that we go outside and fight. Feeling somewhat at a disadvantage as I sat there -- I asked if we could hold off until I had finished my paper work. He went outside to wait for me -- but, before I could exit, another Sheffield boy, my classmate, George Dixon, showed up and their fight took precedence over mine.
While I know it is silly -- even to this day, more that half a century later -- if I am home alone I cannot comfortably go into the restroom without first checking the front door. I guess mentally I can still see that Florence boy bursting into the room.
That is the negative side of learned reactions. Now, apply this to the positive side, learned reactions to the Word of God -- and you have a positive reason for having God brought back into our public school system. Learned habits last a lifetime; and learned positive lessons also last a lifetime. The time to start making sure our children learn the right positive lessons is today.
So, while I would resist prayer and Scripture reading over a public address system in schools -- I most certainly do pray for and earnestly desire to see God invited back into our public school system. He has been evicted far too long -- as rising incidences of teen pregnancies, STDs, drive-by shootings, and other forms of teen unrest will attest. Yes, our young people need to see and hear God in our public schools today.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
He made the observation,
Like Tommy, I do not recall ever hearing a prayer or Scripture reading over a school intercom or pubic address system. But, then, I do not recall if our elementary schools and high school in Sheffield even had an intercom or public address system. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall ever hearing an intercom announcement. But, I was in elementary school in the 1940s and at Sheffield High from 1951 to 1955. Possibly, we did not even have an public address system at that time.
But, if we did have a public address system during those days -- I do not believe it would have been appropriate to have prayer and Scripture reading over the PA system. We were in school to be taught Reading-Riting-Rithmetic; not religion. However, I do recall, with very warm feelings, the weekly assembly meetings where we always had a local clergy speak with the student body. And, no one complained -- not even the non-believers such as I was then -- or even the atheists, if we had any.
Each week, a local clergy would come to speak with us. The local Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish clergy took turns. And, the one most memorable and most enjoyed by we students was very likely the Jewish rabbi. He had a great sense of humor -- telling us, since we could not pronounce his name, "Just call me Rabbi Rubber Band." His name sounded something like that -- so, he made it easy for us to remember him -- and his messages.
Even though I was not a Christian believer then; the teachings I learned in those assemblies have stuck with me over the years -- even when I did not notice. Christian teachings at this vulnerable stage of life for young people can change the future course of life for many young people.
This reminds me of a thought I had today -- of how habits learned at a young age, tend to stay with us throughout life. At the age of 17, I went into the Air Force. One thing we were taught in the Air Force was to consistently do things the right way, i.e., when we had clothing hung, it had to be done so neatly; when we had wash cloths and towels hung -- they had to be squared as they hung. Even to this day, when I see a wash cloth or a towel hung crookedly -- I cannot resist squaring it up, making it straight.
Another reaction learned from my high school days, which came to mind today: If I am home alone and have to go to the restroom; I will always check to see that the front door is locked first. It is a habit I cannot seem to break. Why do I have this form of insecurity? When I was a student at Sheffield High, there was a real "chip on the shoulder" attitude between the boys from Sheffield High and the boys from Coffee High. At that time the only high school in Florence was Coffee. So, this attitude of "we're tougher than you" existed between SHS and CHS boys.
One evening I was in Florence and before hitch-hiking back to Sheffield, stopped in the Youth Center which was on the east side of Court Street across from where the Holiday Inn hotel used to be. I went into the restroom -- and while sitting there, suddenly the door flew open and a Florence boy demanded that we go outside and fight. Feeling somewhat at a disadvantage as I sat there -- I asked if we could hold off until I had finished my paper work. He went outside to wait for me -- but, before I could exit, another Sheffield boy, my classmate, George Dixon, showed up and their fight took precedence over mine.
While I know it is silly -- even to this day, more that half a century later -- if I am home alone I cannot comfortably go into the restroom without first checking the front door. I guess mentally I can still see that Florence boy bursting into the room.
That is the negative side of learned reactions. Now, apply this to the positive side, learned reactions to the Word of God -- and you have a positive reason for having God brought back into our public school system. Learned habits last a lifetime; and learned positive lessons also last a lifetime. The time to start making sure our children learn the right positive lessons is today.
So, while I would resist prayer and Scripture reading over a public address system in schools -- I most certainly do pray for and earnestly desire to see God invited back into our public school system. He has been evicted far too long -- as rising incidences of teen pregnancies, STDs, drive-by shootings, and other forms of teen unrest will attest. Yes, our young people need to see and hear God in our public schools today.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
IS SALVATION A "FREE GIFT" -- OR NOT?
In the discussion "The Stations Of The Cross - Response To Mr. Gray" on the TimesDaily, Florence, Alabama, Religion Forum-- my Friend, VP, tells me, "Well....Mr. Gray, we're making progress. I do sincerely appreciate, and am quite relieved to see that you acknowledge and corrected your error. Indeed it was a poor choice of words. I sincerely hope that it does not reflect the underlying sentiment."
Thank you. But, I am not sure what you mean by "the underlying sentiment." To have used the word "deserve" was in error -- for none of us deserve God's grace nor His mercy. However, if you are referring to the fact that I say that I KNOW that I have eternal life in Jesus Christ -- no, that sentiment has not changed. For a Christian believer to not KNOW he/she has eternal life in Jesus Christ -- is to call Him a liar. For, He tells us, in John 6:47, "He who believes HAS eternal life." So, I ask you -- is this statement made by Jesus Christ true -- or a lie?
Then, VP, you say,"I think that where we indeed split is in your conviction of a "free gift." I do not believe for one minute that this gift is free. I believe that Jesus suffered way beyond our comprehension. Physically and emotionally."
I said the gift of salvation is FREE to US; I never implied that Jesus Christ did not suffer to make that "gift free." Yes, He most certainly suffered a cruel crucifixion in our place. Yet, He "paid in full" the price of our salvation. So, to us -- the gift of salvation is "free" -- but, only if we will accept it. Let's suppose you are broke and homeless and I come to you and offer you $1,000,000 free and clear. Can you earn that $1,000,000? Do you deserve that $1,000,000? No. But, if you will receive it from me as a "free gift" -- you are a millionaire.
If you refuse to receive the "free gift" of $1,000,000 from me -- you are still a broke, homeless person.
The same is true of salvation: Jesus Christ is holding out His hand and in it is your eternal salvation. If you will not receive it; then you do not have salvation.
Next, you tell me,"And I believe he continues to suffer!! Every time we sin (and we ALL do) we hurt Jesus. Physically and emotionally. All over again."
Yes, our iniquities, our sins, do grieve our Lord -- but, can we hurt Him "physically" again? No. Jesus Christ died on the cross of Calvary -- ONCE for all.
Romans 6:10, "For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God."
Hebrews 10:10, "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"
This is why, in the Protestant churches, you will not see Jesus Christ hanging on the cross; you will see only the cross -- the symbol of what He did for us. He hung dead on the cross; but, He rose -- as we will celebrate next week -- and HE LIVES! Never to be crucified again! Never to hang on a cross again -- in reality or symbolically.
You say,"Sin separates us from the love of God."
Yes, we are born with a sin nature inherited from Adam; and this separates us from God. We are told in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
We are told in Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
And, we are assured in Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Sin indeed does separate us from God. However, once we become a child of God, once we become a born again Christian believer -- no power on earth or in heaven can separate us from the love of God. We are permanently adopted into the Family of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ -- eternally secure in Him.
Then, you tell me,"When He says 'It is finished' -- I believe this means his work on earth. I do not for one second believe that the battle with Satan is over. I believe, if anything, that it is more fierce than ever.
Jesus Christ came to earth for one purpose: To bring the "free gift" of eternal salvation to all who will receive it.
When, on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" -- He had accomplished this task; He had done all that needed to be done to provide the "free gift" of salvation to all who will receive it.
Satan has lost the war -- he just is not smart enough to know it. Does Satan still harass Christian believers? You bet he does!
Can Satan or his demonic spirits possess the body of a Christian believer? No. Absolutely not! When we become a Christian believer -- we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, God the Holy Spirit takes up residence within us, seals us until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). And, God will not share His abode with anyone else; especially Satan or any of his demonic spirits. Satan's demonic spirits can harass us, but, they cannot enter us or possess us. Our God is a jealous God (praise the Lord!) and will not share what is His with Satan.
VP, I have shared this before; but, before you came on the Religion Forum. About six years ago, a friend's mother-in-law had destroyed her marriage. The girl was staying with us for a while. The mother-in-law, who was very much into psychics and other New Age things, called one day. The girl was out with my wife, so I talked with the mother-in-law, trying to convince her to leave the young couple alone and let them rebuild their marriage. But, this woman was evil, no other woman was going to have her son.
And, this I am not making up or exaggerating. While we were talking, I could feel, strongly sense, many demonic spirits in my home office -- just from talking with this woman over the telephone. It felt like my office was filled to the brim with these demonic spirits. But, since I know I am a child of God; I felt no fear, just annoyance that this woman was so controlled by Satan and his spirits -- that she wanted to destroy any woman who came close to her son.
Yes, Satan and his demonic spirits can harass we Christians -- but, we have the full armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20) protecting us.
You tell us,"Jesus suffered so greatly, that I cannot even begin to put into words. He spent His life on earth SHOWING us how to be. We are supposed to strive to be like Him. Not just to "accept" him, and move on. It is not free. The cost of sin is the blood of the Lamb of God. Yours, mine, and every man on earth and under the earth. He sacrificed Himself so that we may believe. So that we may continue His teachings -- in Word, AND practice."
None of us can begin to imagine how He suffered for us. This is so true; and this is why I felt that Mel Gibson's "Passion Of The Christ" movie was so worthwhile for all Christians to see. No one could see this movie, even though it was only a movie -- and not feel some of that pain. So, yes, we are to strive with all our being to be like Him -- that is why we are called Christians, Christ Followers.
You say,"(Salvation is) Not just to "accept" him, and move on."
I agree with you completely! When we become Christian believers, when we accept that "free gift" of salvation -- our mission as a believer has only begun. The salvation was given as a "free gift" -- something we could not, in our own power, earn. Yet, once we accept that "free gift" -- if the fruit of our salvation does not kick in, if we just sit on our duff and ignore others who have not yet been able, or willing, to believe and receive this "free gift" -- we are dishonoring our Lord.
He gave us two ordinances: baptism and communion -- that we do in remembrance of Him.
And, He gave us marching orders: Go, Make Disciples, Baptize Them, Teach Them (Matthew 28:19-20) -- Be My witness in all the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).
If we do not do these things -- we are still saved, we still have His promise of eternal life -- but, the fruit of our salvation is dead
(James 2:17). Yet, we, ourselves, are still saved (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
You tell us,"The analogy that I will present is like a marriage. Is it enough to say "I do"? Does that complete your obligation? NO! It is an every minute of every day in and day out commitment. It is asking for forgiveness when we mess up, and being that forgiveness for the other. It is in being kind and charitable, humble and accepting. "I do" is just the opening of the chapter. Jesus shows us how to handle ourselves in our relationships- forgiveness, patience, tolerance, and humility.
Amen! Amen! Amen! The moment we become a Christian believer; we have eternal salvation. However, if we are to be effective Christ Followers -- our work in the service of the Lord has just begun. That is when our Christian motor should kick in; that is when we will love our neighbors as ourselves; that is when we strive hard to feed the less fortunate -- physically AND spiritually. This is when it should become the highest priority -- that we take the love of Jesus Christ to the lost world. While our more liberal friends will want to wrap this in the "Social Theology" mantle; I prefer to just call it being a Christian missionary; taking Christ to the world.
Finally, you say,"I think that accepting the "not so free gift " is the "I do"...then the hard part is up to us."
You say it is a"not so free gift" -- yet, the Word of God, in Romans 6:23 and in Ephesians 2:8-9, tells us it IS a "free gift." Who are we to believe -- you or God?
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
Thank you. But, I am not sure what you mean by "the underlying sentiment." To have used the word "deserve" was in error -- for none of us deserve God's grace nor His mercy. However, if you are referring to the fact that I say that I KNOW that I have eternal life in Jesus Christ -- no, that sentiment has not changed. For a Christian believer to not KNOW he/she has eternal life in Jesus Christ -- is to call Him a liar. For, He tells us, in John 6:47, "He who believes HAS eternal life." So, I ask you -- is this statement made by Jesus Christ true -- or a lie?
Then, VP, you say,
I said the gift of salvation is FREE to US; I never implied that Jesus Christ did not suffer to make that "gift free." Yes, He most certainly suffered a cruel crucifixion in our place. Yet, He "paid in full" the price of our salvation. So, to us -- the gift of salvation is "free" -- but, only if we will accept it. Let's suppose you are broke and homeless and I come to you and offer you $1,000,000 free and clear. Can you earn that $1,000,000? Do you deserve that $1,000,000? No. But, if you will receive it from me as a "free gift" -- you are a millionaire.
If you refuse to receive the "free gift" of $1,000,000 from me -- you are still a broke, homeless person.
The same is true of salvation: Jesus Christ is holding out His hand and in it is your eternal salvation. If you will not receive it; then you do not have salvation.
Next, you tell me,
Yes, our iniquities, our sins, do grieve our Lord -- but, can we hurt Him "physically" again? No. Jesus Christ died on the cross of Calvary -- ONCE for all.
Romans 6:10, "For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God."
Hebrews 10:10, "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"
This is why, in the Protestant churches, you will not see Jesus Christ hanging on the cross; you will see only the cross -- the symbol of what He did for us. He hung dead on the cross; but, He rose -- as we will celebrate next week -- and HE LIVES! Never to be crucified again! Never to hang on a cross again -- in reality or symbolically.
You say,
Yes, we are born with a sin nature inherited from Adam; and this separates us from God. We are told in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
We are told in Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
And, we are assured in Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Sin indeed does separate us from God. However, once we become a child of God, once we become a born again Christian believer -- no power on earth or in heaven can separate us from the love of God. We are permanently adopted into the Family of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ -- eternally secure in Him.
Then, you tell me,
Jesus Christ came to earth for one purpose: To bring the "free gift" of eternal salvation to all who will receive it.
When, on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" -- He had accomplished this task; He had done all that needed to be done to provide the "free gift" of salvation to all who will receive it.
Satan has lost the war -- he just is not smart enough to know it. Does Satan still harass Christian believers? You bet he does!
Can Satan or his demonic spirits possess the body of a Christian believer? No. Absolutely not! When we become a Christian believer -- we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, God the Holy Spirit takes up residence within us, seals us until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). And, God will not share His abode with anyone else; especially Satan or any of his demonic spirits. Satan's demonic spirits can harass us, but, they cannot enter us or possess us. Our God is a jealous God (praise the Lord!) and will not share what is His with Satan.
VP, I have shared this before; but, before you came on the Religion Forum. About six years ago, a friend's mother-in-law had destroyed her marriage. The girl was staying with us for a while. The mother-in-law, who was very much into psychics and other New Age things, called one day. The girl was out with my wife, so I talked with the mother-in-law, trying to convince her to leave the young couple alone and let them rebuild their marriage. But, this woman was evil, no other woman was going to have her son.
And, this I am not making up or exaggerating. While we were talking, I could feel, strongly sense, many demonic spirits in my home office -- just from talking with this woman over the telephone. It felt like my office was filled to the brim with these demonic spirits. But, since I know I am a child of God; I felt no fear, just annoyance that this woman was so controlled by Satan and his spirits -- that she wanted to destroy any woman who came close to her son.
Yes, Satan and his demonic spirits can harass we Christians -- but, we have the full armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20) protecting us.
You tell us,
None of us can begin to imagine how He suffered for us. This is so true; and this is why I felt that Mel Gibson's "Passion Of The Christ" movie was so worthwhile for all Christians to see. No one could see this movie, even though it was only a movie -- and not feel some of that pain. So, yes, we are to strive with all our being to be like Him -- that is why we are called Christians, Christ Followers.
You say,
I agree with you completely! When we become Christian believers, when we accept that "free gift" of salvation -- our mission as a believer has only begun. The salvation was given as a "free gift" -- something we could not, in our own power, earn. Yet, once we accept that "free gift" -- if the fruit of our salvation does not kick in, if we just sit on our duff and ignore others who have not yet been able, or willing, to believe and receive this "free gift" -- we are dishonoring our Lord.
He gave us two ordinances: baptism and communion -- that we do in remembrance of Him.
And, He gave us marching orders: Go, Make Disciples, Baptize Them, Teach Them (Matthew 28:19-20) -- Be My witness in all the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).
If we do not do these things -- we are still saved, we still have His promise of eternal life -- but, the fruit of our salvation is dead
(James 2:17). Yet, we, ourselves, are still saved (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
You tell us,
Amen! Amen! Amen! The moment we become a Christian believer; we have eternal salvation. However, if we are to be effective Christ Followers -- our work in the service of the Lord has just begun. That is when our Christian motor should kick in; that is when we will love our neighbors as ourselves; that is when we strive hard to feed the less fortunate -- physically AND spiritually. This is when it should become the highest priority -- that we take the love of Jesus Christ to the lost world. While our more liberal friends will want to wrap this in the "Social Theology" mantle; I prefer to just call it being a Christian missionary; taking Christ to the world.
Finally, you say,
You say it is a
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
THESE THINGS I KNOW!
The things I know for sure are:
1. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior -- eternal, preexisting, and deity; He is God the Son.
2. Jesus Christ died on the cross to offer eternal salvation to ALL who will believe and receive His free gift.
3. This "free gift" of eternal salvation which Jesus Christ offers to ALL who will believe and receive it -- IS PAID IN FULL!
4. That Jesus Christ tells me that, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).
5. That by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- all who will believe and receive (John 1:12), all who will open the door of their heart and invite Him to come in (Revelation 3:20) -- have His promise of eternal life.
6. My Lord does not lie. Therefore, since He has promised that "he who believes HAS eternal life" -- I believe and accept this.
7. Based upon all the above: I know that I, Bill Gray, am a Christian believer, a Christ Follower -- and that I WILL (based upon His promises) spend eternity in heaven with Jesus Christ. I KNOW that I HAVE eternal security in Him; just as He promised.
These things I can say unequivocally about Bill Gray. You will have to speak for yourself; neither I, nor anyone else, can do this. If you do not KNOW that you have eternal security in Jesus Christ; maybe you need to get deeper into a study of your Bible.
I am not saying, and have never said -- that because a person is a Roman Catholic, he/she is not saved. I have never said, that because a person is a Methodist, he/she is not saved. And, I have NEVER said that because I am a Protestant, I am saved.
NO ONE is saved based upon the church they attend. Who is saved; how are we saved?
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Everyone, regardless of which church one attends, who believes and receives this "free gift" -- is born again (John 3:3) and is a child of God, a Christian believer, a Christ Follower -- and HAS ETERNAL LIFE in Jesus Christ.
If this applies to you; praise God! It is up to you whether you accept or deny His "free gift." But, one must lay aside religion and accept this personal relationship He is offering.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
1. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior -- eternal, preexisting, and deity; He is God the Son.
2. Jesus Christ died on the cross to offer eternal salvation to ALL who will believe and receive His free gift.
3. This "free gift" of eternal salvation which Jesus Christ offers to ALL who will believe and receive it -- IS PAID IN FULL!
4. That Jesus Christ tells me that, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).
5. That by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- all who will believe and receive (John 1:12), all who will open the door of their heart and invite Him to come in (Revelation 3:20) -- have His promise of eternal life.
6. My Lord does not lie. Therefore, since He has promised that "he who believes HAS eternal life" -- I believe and accept this.
7. Based upon all the above: I know that I, Bill Gray, am a Christian believer, a Christ Follower -- and that I WILL (based upon His promises) spend eternity in heaven with Jesus Christ. I KNOW that I HAVE eternal security in Him; just as He promised.
These things I can say unequivocally about Bill Gray. You will have to speak for yourself; neither I, nor anyone else, can do this. If you do not KNOW that you have eternal security in Jesus Christ; maybe you need to get deeper into a study of your Bible.
I am not saying, and have never said -- that because a person is a Roman Catholic, he/she is not saved. I have never said, that because a person is a Methodist, he/she is not saved. And, I have NEVER said that because I am a Protestant, I am saved.
NO ONE is saved based upon the church they attend. Who is saved; how are we saved?
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Everyone, regardless of which church one attends, who believes and receives this "free gift" -- is born again (John 3:3) and is a child of God, a Christian believer, a Christ Follower -- and HAS ETERNAL LIFE in Jesus Christ.
If this applies to you; praise God! It is up to you whether you accept or deny His "free gift." But, one must lay aside religion and accept this personal relationship He is offering.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
A FRIEND'S QUESTIONS AND CONCERNS
Hi LS,
Thank you for your feedback and letting me know that there are folks like you who do find value in the writings we post on the Religion Forum. As you well know, many of the public responses tend to be more in the form of "thrown rocks" than in responses of encouragement, such as yours. Again, thank you.
I apologize for taking several days to respond. While I consider the posts on the open Forum to be important; I consider those questions sent via PMs to be of much higher importance since they are usually questions or thoughts which are heavy on a person's mind. Because of this, I feel more comfortable taking a wee bit longer to make sure that I have given the very best answer possible. Sometimes, such as in this instance, you may send a PM and not get a fast reply -- yet, still see me posting responses on the open Forum. This is because I do consider your PM questions to be of much higher importance and want to take more time to make sure I respond appropriately.
I have been sick for the past week and a half. I missed Bible study last Friday and will miss it again tonight because of this. The bad part about me missing Bible study -- is that I am the study leader. Sort of like the guy who kept telling his wife he did not feel like going to church -- and she kept telling him that he had to go to church. In frustration, he cried out, "Why?" -- and she sweetly replied, "Because you are the pastor."
LS, you ask me,"Good evening, Mr. Gray, I have been a faithful reader on the Religion Forum for some time now and I truly enjoy and am quite enlighten by a lot of your posts, as well as inspired. We seem to agree on a lot of subjects. But I have this dilemma and am searching for a true answer and you seem to be quite knowledgeable of the Word of God so I thought I might inquire of you, if you don't mind.
I read on one of your post where you commented on the gift of speaking in unknown language, but I can't remember exactly what you said at this moment. So, do you believe that the gifts of Speaking in Tongues and Prophesying ended with the death of the apostles and -- if so, what language are the people we hear in churches today speaking and how are they doing it if God doesn't allow this gift any longer."
In the Old Testament, prophets spoke the words given them by God, i.e, they were His human messengers sent to the His people, Israel. While the Israelites had scrolls of Scripture in those days; these were usually found in the temple and in the care of temple leaders. The common folks, such as you and me, did not have their own personal Bibles like we have today. In the Old Testament, God spoke through His prophets. Today, for the most part, He speaks to us through His Written Word, the Bible.
Are some people given revelations from God today? Yes, I would say it has happened to most all Christian believers at some time or another, even though we may not recognize it as a revelation from the Holy Spirit. However, these revelations do not make us prophets. My belief is that there are no longer prophets of God such as we find in the Old Testaments.
Scripture tells us of prophets: Ephesians 4:11-12, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ."
And, in 1 Corinthians 12:27-28, "Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues."
There is a down side to being a true prophet of God which most who call themselves "prophet" today will not address or just ignore because "that if the Old Testament." Yet, even though in much of the Old Testament God is speaking and acting upon the house of Israel -- the complete Bible is our revelation from God. If the Old Testament were to be ignored; Jesus would not have quoted it since He was here to institute the church of the New Testament.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22, "But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."
In Ephesians 4:11 we are told, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers," Yet, we know there are no more "apostles" for we are told, in Acts 1:21-22, that to be an apostle the person must be one who walked with Jesus and the apostles. No one today can say that he walked personally with Jesus during His earthly ministry; therefore no one can be called an apostle. Paul was set aside differently because he did experience Jesus face to face and was made a special apostle by Jesus Himself on the road to Damascus. No one today can claim either of these experiences. Thus, there are no apostles today.
The same applies to the office of prophets. This was a man or woman, chosen and sent personally by God, to "speak as God has commanded him" (Deuteronomy 18:18) -- and the penalty for being wrong was death. There are no such prophets today.
In Luke 16:16, Jesus told the Pharisees, "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the Gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."
Jesus is telling the Pharisees, and us, that John the Baptist was the last Old Testament prophet. From that time forward, the Gospel is to be preached.
Today, in my personal opinion, we have pastors, teachers, evangelists, elders, and deacons -- but, the time of the apostles and prophets has passed. Yet, as I said earlier, we all do receive revelations from the Holy Spirit through our spirits. Those revelations can be teachings, encouragement, leading, and/or convictions when we are heading down a path God has not chosen for us.
Then, you ask,"Does the ability to have authority over the enemy and everything that Jesus stated in John 14 concerning (paraphrasing) greater works being done because He is going back to the Father -- apply only to the apostles and did that ability die with the apostles?"
Pastor David Guzik, director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany, has written a good commentary note on this:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John 14:12, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."
a. "The works I do he will do": Jesus did not expect the disciples to disband after His departure, but to carry on the work in even greater magnitude.
b. "Greater works than these he will do": This promise seems impossible; yet after Peter's first sermon there were more converted (3000 souls) than are recorded during Jesus' entire ministry. Greater is not "more sensational" but greater in magnitude. Jesus will leave behind a victorious, working church, not a cowering one.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, when you ask,"Does this apply only to the apostles and did that ability die with the apostles?
No, it did not die with the apostles. If we follow Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19-20, to Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them -- and His command in Mark 16:15 and Acts 1:8, to be His witnesses in all the world -- we will be continuing the work that Jesus and the apostles began in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. And, we will be doing it in greater magnitude because there are now many millions of us doing the work He has given us -- that of sharing the Gospel with the unsaved.
John 14:13-14, "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."
Is this our ticket for a new Rolls Royce, Mercedes, or Bentley -- our ticket to a mansion in Beverly Hills? There are Prosperity Theology pastors who will tell you that this is exactly what Jesus meant. One such pastor in Los Angeles said in his sermon, "If you do not have enough faith to drive a Rolls Royce; don't be jealous of me driving my Rolls Royce." What he neglected to say is that his Rolls Royce is paid for "by his church" -- by the people sitting in his congregation or listening on radio or television who are wondering how they will pay their rent this month, after they send their tithing to him. No, this teaching must be viewed through the lens of the entire Bible.
Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, California, writes in his John 13-14 (C2000 Series) Commentary:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John 14:13-14, "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."
To whom is this broad promise of prayer made? To that man who first of all has denied himself. So, his prayer isn't going to be one for his own glory, for his own wealth, for his own enrichment. Jesus isn't saying here, "Just ask for a Cadillac, and I'll give you one. Ask for a Mercedes, ask anything, I'll give it to you!"
Mark 8:34, "And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, 'If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.'"
No. "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself." And that's the first qualification to a man who has this broad promise.
Secondly, "let him take up his cross." By that, submitting himself totally to the will of the Father. "Not my will; Thy will be done." And that man who has totally submitted his life to the will of the Father, who has denied himself, who is following Jesus Christ, he has a glorious broad promise from the Lord, "Whatsoever you ask in My name, I will do it." Because whatever I am asking will be according to the will of God, because that's what I desire to see.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Next, you ask,"This past weekend, I was in a worship experience where several members in the congregation proceeded to jump up and run around the sanctuary as example, I guess of being free; strongholds being broken, shackles loosed, and now they are free to run at ease.
Is there anything scriptural concerning this as being a way of worship? In God's Word, he says that speaking in an unknown language was for the unbeliever, so when an entire Church is speaking in tongues and there isn't an obvious interpreter and the Pastor does it as well, is this a form of false teaching and how exactly do you know if someone is a false teacher or false Prophet when everything else they do appear to be correct? I didn't say Biblically, correct because there is still a lot in the Bible I obviously have not read."
When you say,"In God's Word, he says that speaking in an unknown language was for the unbeliever. . ." -- you are referring to the Scripture passage: 1 Corinthians 14:22-23, "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy (is for a sign), not to unbelievers but to those who believe. Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?"
I believe the point that Paul is making here is that, our main goal as Christian believers is to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the unsaved world, to the non-believer. And, if we drive them away with practices they see as weird, i.e., speaking in tongues, running and dancing around the sanctuary during the worship service, etc. -- how can we be a witness to them? So, it is best to conduct ourselves in a manner which is welcoming to those non-believers and unchurched -- that we may embrace them -- that they may eventually embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
You ask,"How exactly do you know if someone is a false teacher or false Prophet when everything else they do appear to be correct?"
First, you seek discernment from the Holy Spirit through prayer. Then, you do as the apostle Paul tells us of the Bereans, in Acts 17:11, ". . . examine the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so."
A word of advise: When you listen to false teachers, in person or on television, make a list of the Scripture verses they quote and around which they preach -- then, when you have more time, examine those verses and passages to see if what they taught was really what the Bible teaches.
An example: Some years ago, my wife and I were watching a well known Prosperity Preacher on television. He was preaching on anointing oil -- and as he preached, Scripture verses would pop up on the screen. Since he was moving much too fast for me to check each one in real time -- I wrote them down and later reviewed each verse. I found that on 8 out of 10, he was correct. But, on the other two, he totally misrepresented the meaning of Scripture in his attempt to make it fit his message.
This is common to false teachers. Six, seven, or even eight out of ten will be right on. But, once they have lulled you into believing what they are saying -- they hit you with the zinger, the false teaching, and you buy it because he has been right eight times before.
If he is teaching a message which is not 100% Biblical; he is a false teacher. Now, here I must qualify my statement. We know that many times if you have ten people reading the same Scripture passage -- you will have eleven different interpretations. A person may be teaching a Scripture passage the way he understands it, which may or may not be right -- and still not be a false teacher; only a misinformed one.
When I speak of teaching something which is obviously not the meaning of Scripture; I am referring to people such as the Prosperity Preacher in Los Angeles who teaches, "If you do not have enough faith to drive a Rolls Royce; don't be jealous of me driving my Rolls Royce." I noticed recently that this man has begun to wear a robe similar to what Roman Catholic cardinals wear; but his is green with red trim. This man is obviously exalting himself to the Pharisee level.
So, back to your questions,"How exactly do you know if someone is a false teacher?"
Prayer -- and following the advise of Acts 17:11 -- ". . .test what they teach against the full Written Word of God, the Bible."
Finally, you tell me,"These are just a few of the things I am struggling with right now and am in constant prayer concerning this, because as the days get closer to Jesus' return, those things that have an appearance of right are really wrong and wrong is really beginning to look right -- and I don't want to be misled nor mislead my family. I really appreciate any help you can present with these questions. Have a good evening!!!"
LS, I pray that the answers I have given you are sufficient. If not, I will be honored to continue our dialogue.
If you are comfortable with the idea, I can post our dialogue on the Religion Forum so that we can share our thoughts with all of our Forum Friends. But, if not, that is no problem. You posted this as a Private Message and I will always honor that. If you do feel comfortable with me sharing this on the Religion Forum and/or in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter, I can change your name to protect your privacy.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
Thank you for your feedback and letting me know that there are folks like you who do find value in the writings we post on the Religion Forum. As you well know, many of the public responses tend to be more in the form of "thrown rocks" than in responses of encouragement, such as yours. Again, thank you.
I apologize for taking several days to respond. While I consider the posts on the open Forum to be important; I consider those questions sent via PMs to be of much higher importance since they are usually questions or thoughts which are heavy on a person's mind. Because of this, I feel more comfortable taking a wee bit longer to make sure that I have given the very best answer possible. Sometimes, such as in this instance, you may send a PM and not get a fast reply -- yet, still see me posting responses on the open Forum. This is because I do consider your PM questions to be of much higher importance and want to take more time to make sure I respond appropriately.
I have been sick for the past week and a half. I missed Bible study last Friday and will miss it again tonight because of this. The bad part about me missing Bible study -- is that I am the study leader. Sort of like the guy who kept telling his wife he did not feel like going to church -- and she kept telling him that he had to go to church. In frustration, he cried out, "Why?" -- and she sweetly replied, "Because you are the pastor."
LS, you ask me,
I read on one of your post where you commented on the gift of speaking in unknown language, but I can't remember exactly what you said at this moment. So, do you believe that the gifts of Speaking in Tongues and Prophesying ended with the death of the apostles and -- if so, what language are the people we hear in churches today speaking and how are they doing it if God doesn't allow this gift any longer."
In the Old Testament, prophets spoke the words given them by God, i.e, they were His human messengers sent to the His people, Israel. While the Israelites had scrolls of Scripture in those days; these were usually found in the temple and in the care of temple leaders. The common folks, such as you and me, did not have their own personal Bibles like we have today. In the Old Testament, God spoke through His prophets. Today, for the most part, He speaks to us through His Written Word, the Bible.
Are some people given revelations from God today? Yes, I would say it has happened to most all Christian believers at some time or another, even though we may not recognize it as a revelation from the Holy Spirit. However, these revelations do not make us prophets. My belief is that there are no longer prophets of God such as we find in the Old Testaments.
Scripture tells us of prophets: Ephesians 4:11-12, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ."
And, in 1 Corinthians 12:27-28, "Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues."
There is a down side to being a true prophet of God which most who call themselves "prophet" today will not address or just ignore because "that if the Old Testament." Yet, even though in much of the Old Testament God is speaking and acting upon the house of Israel -- the complete Bible is our revelation from God. If the Old Testament were to be ignored; Jesus would not have quoted it since He was here to institute the church of the New Testament.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22, "But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."
In Ephesians 4:11 we are told, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers," Yet, we know there are no more "apostles" for we are told, in Acts 1:21-22, that to be an apostle the person must be one who walked with Jesus and the apostles. No one today can say that he walked personally with Jesus during His earthly ministry; therefore no one can be called an apostle. Paul was set aside differently because he did experience Jesus face to face and was made a special apostle by Jesus Himself on the road to Damascus. No one today can claim either of these experiences. Thus, there are no apostles today.
The same applies to the office of prophets. This was a man or woman, chosen and sent personally by God, to "speak as God has commanded him" (Deuteronomy 18:18) -- and the penalty for being wrong was death. There are no such prophets today.
In Luke 16:16, Jesus told the Pharisees, "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the Gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."
Jesus is telling the Pharisees, and us, that John the Baptist was the last Old Testament prophet. From that time forward, the Gospel is to be preached.
Today, in my personal opinion, we have pastors, teachers, evangelists, elders, and deacons -- but, the time of the apostles and prophets has passed. Yet, as I said earlier, we all do receive revelations from the Holy Spirit through our spirits. Those revelations can be teachings, encouragement, leading, and/or convictions when we are heading down a path God has not chosen for us.
Then, you ask,
Pastor David Guzik, director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany, has written a good commentary note on this:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John 14:12, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."
a. "The works I do he will do": Jesus did not expect the disciples to disband after His departure, but to carry on the work in even greater magnitude.
b. "Greater works than these he will do": This promise seems impossible; yet after Peter's first sermon there were more converted (3000 souls) than are recorded during Jesus' entire ministry. Greater is not "more sensational" but greater in magnitude. Jesus will leave behind a victorious, working church, not a cowering one.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, when you ask,
No, it did not die with the apostles. If we follow Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19-20, to Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them -- and His command in Mark 16:15 and Acts 1:8, to be His witnesses in all the world -- we will be continuing the work that Jesus and the apostles began in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. And, we will be doing it in greater magnitude because there are now many millions of us doing the work He has given us -- that of sharing the Gospel with the unsaved.
John 14:13-14, "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."
Is this our ticket for a new Rolls Royce, Mercedes, or Bentley -- our ticket to a mansion in Beverly Hills? There are Prosperity Theology pastors who will tell you that this is exactly what Jesus meant. One such pastor in Los Angeles said in his sermon, "If you do not have enough faith to drive a Rolls Royce; don't be jealous of me driving my Rolls Royce." What he neglected to say is that his Rolls Royce is paid for "by his church" -- by the people sitting in his congregation or listening on radio or television who are wondering how they will pay their rent this month, after they send their tithing to him. No, this teaching must be viewed through the lens of the entire Bible.
Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, California, writes in his John 13-14 (C2000 Series) Commentary:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John 14:13-14, "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."
To whom is this broad promise of prayer made? To that man who first of all has denied himself. So, his prayer isn't going to be one for his own glory, for his own wealth, for his own enrichment. Jesus isn't saying here, "Just ask for a Cadillac, and I'll give you one. Ask for a Mercedes, ask anything, I'll give it to you!"
Mark 8:34, "And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, 'If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.'"
No. "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself." And that's the first qualification to a man who has this broad promise.
Secondly, "let him take up his cross." By that, submitting himself totally to the will of the Father. "Not my will; Thy will be done." And that man who has totally submitted his life to the will of the Father, who has denied himself, who is following Jesus Christ, he has a glorious broad promise from the Lord, "Whatsoever you ask in My name, I will do it." Because whatever I am asking will be according to the will of God, because that's what I desire to see.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Next, you ask,
Is there anything scriptural concerning this as being a way of worship? In God's Word, he says that speaking in an unknown language was for the unbeliever, so when an entire Church is speaking in tongues and there isn't an obvious interpreter and the Pastor does it as well, is this a form of false teaching and how exactly do you know if someone is a false teacher or false Prophet when everything else they do appear to be correct? I didn't say Biblically, correct because there is still a lot in the Bible I obviously have not read."
When you say,
I believe the point that Paul is making here is that, our main goal as Christian believers is to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the unsaved world, to the non-believer. And, if we drive them away with practices they see as weird, i.e., speaking in tongues, running and dancing around the sanctuary during the worship service, etc. -- how can we be a witness to them? So, it is best to conduct ourselves in a manner which is welcoming to those non-believers and unchurched -- that we may embrace them -- that they may eventually embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
You ask,
First, you seek discernment from the Holy Spirit through prayer. Then, you do as the apostle Paul tells us of the Bereans, in Acts 17:11, ". . . examine the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so."
A word of advise: When you listen to false teachers, in person or on television, make a list of the Scripture verses they quote and around which they preach -- then, when you have more time, examine those verses and passages to see if what they taught was really what the Bible teaches.
An example: Some years ago, my wife and I were watching a well known Prosperity Preacher on television. He was preaching on anointing oil -- and as he preached, Scripture verses would pop up on the screen. Since he was moving much too fast for me to check each one in real time -- I wrote them down and later reviewed each verse. I found that on 8 out of 10, he was correct. But, on the other two, he totally misrepresented the meaning of Scripture in his attempt to make it fit his message.
This is common to false teachers. Six, seven, or even eight out of ten will be right on. But, once they have lulled you into believing what they are saying -- they hit you with the zinger, the false teaching, and you buy it because he has been right eight times before.
If he is teaching a message which is not 100% Biblical; he is a false teacher. Now, here I must qualify my statement. We know that many times if you have ten people reading the same Scripture passage -- you will have eleven different interpretations. A person may be teaching a Scripture passage the way he understands it, which may or may not be right -- and still not be a false teacher; only a misinformed one.
When I speak of teaching something which is obviously not the meaning of Scripture; I am referring to people such as the Prosperity Preacher in Los Angeles who teaches, "If you do not have enough faith to drive a Rolls Royce; don't be jealous of me driving my Rolls Royce." I noticed recently that this man has begun to wear a robe similar to what Roman Catholic cardinals wear; but his is green with red trim. This man is obviously exalting himself to the Pharisee level.
So, back to your questions,
Prayer -- and following the advise of Acts 17:11 -- ". . .test what they teach against the full Written Word of God, the Bible."
Finally, you tell me,
LS, I pray that the answers I have given you are sufficient. If not, I will be honored to continue our dialogue.
If you are comfortable with the idea, I can post our dialogue on the Religion Forum so that we can share our thoughts with all of our Forum Friends. But, if not, that is no problem. You posted this as a Private Message and I will always honor that. If you do feel comfortable with me sharing this on the Religion Forum and/or in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter, I can change your name to protect your privacy.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
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